Friday, August 22, 2014

Hoss vs Herb, did Christ have faith?

Note: I believe that in this grace dispensation (Eph. 3:1-9) that we receive salvation upon putting our faith in Christ and that when we do that we are instantly justified by Christ's faith according to Galatians 2:16-20 and 2 Timothy 2:13.
Discussion between Dr. Herb Evans and myself. My comments in green, Herb's in red.
Herb, who's faith do you believe we are justified by? --Hoss

Galatians 2:
[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

2 Timothy 2:[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Isaiah 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 

1 Thessalonians 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[24] Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

        You must be listening to some Calvinist. My faith justified me. Why would you try to take advantage of the nuance regarding the word "OF" in English and even in Greek and try to manipulate it. Why would Jesus have to have faith when He is omnicient. Once you begin to prove doctrine by prepositions you are in danger of becoming a Campbellite. Obviously, you left out the passages about the "faith IN Christ."   Again you are fling scriptures without scenarios.  -- Herb Evans
I don't know any Calvinists to listen to....except for James R. White, and I wouldn't listen to him if you paid me. However, I learnt the teaching from Pastor David O'Steen and I think Dr. Reese teaches it as well. E.C. Moore may have done it too.

If what you say is true, that Jesus didn't have faith, how could He be called "faithful" so many times? 2 Timothy 2:[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Doesn't that mean that we can lose our faith in Christ, but He remains "faithful" and we cannot be denied because we are in Him ("cannot deny himself") ?

But yes I do believe in faith IN Christ, we must have that to receive salvation. My point is that once we put our faith in Christ we are justified by His faith whether we lose our faith ("believe not") that He will not deny us because we are members of Him ("he cannot deny himself").

How does that sound Calvinist? (I am not familiar with Calvinist lingo.)  --bro. Hoss
        Unfortunately, you do not seem to know the difference between "faith" and "faithful." You may split hairs to arrive at the doctrines that you parrot from that unholy trinity, but it will kick you in the back side before you are through. Didn't Ruckman have to give Moore the boot? --Herb Evans
Herb, I don't mean to argue with you....but here is an explanation of why I believe that Christ had faith. (scripture included with rationale)

What do you believe faith is? Yes, Christ was omniscient but that doesn't mean that He didn't need faith. Faith is not merely believing what you don't see or understand. When kids believe in Santa Clause that is not faith. Faith is believing the word of God......So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17).

Throughout the ministry of Christ; He believed, lived by, quoted, and taught the written word of God.  Jesus believed and obeyed the word of God to accomplish our redemption. He learned obedience........Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered (Heb. 5:8) and He was "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:8).

If every word of God is pure, than I can take prepositions very seriously. There is indeed a difference between faith IN Christ and the faith OF Christ.....why? Because "of" and "in" are not the same word. To try and say they are the same is backing up the modern perversions.....(see NIV, NKJV, ESV, NASB, etc. in Gal 2:16, 20, and the other passages I gave you.)

We receive salvation through our faith but we are justified by the faith of Christ.

If you are justified by your own faith than you have to do works. A man's faith is not perfect without works and man's faith can draw back unto perdition. Look right here at James 2 and Hebrew 10

James 2:[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
           James 2 describes justification by the faith of man. Man's faith is NOT perfect and it has to be proven. This justification is a process according to James 2:21-23 with Abraham. There is no such thing as a man being justified by his own faith without's faith and his work are not separable. You have to show your faith BY your works. Your faith is "dead" without works (v.20).

     The trib. saints have to endure to the end without drawing back unto perdition. It is salvation based upon THEIR faith, not Christ's. Look at Hebrews 10 and 1 Peter 1.

Hebrews 10:[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
    [38] Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.[39] But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Peter 1:[7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:[8] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:[9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

   The salvation of trib saints is a process of the trial of their faith. If they don't endure to the end they will not be saved. 1 Peter 1:9 plainly states that Peter is talking about salvation by trial of faith. At the end of the trial they would receive the end of their faith, EVEN THE SALVATION of their souls.

Now look at Revelation 2 and 14.

Revelation 14:[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 2:[9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

  The trib. saints have to keep the faith of Christ, obviously then they aren't going to be instantly justified by the faith of Christ like we are in this dispensation. They have to try and KEEP Christ's faith by being faithful unto death like He was. That is enduring to the end. Remember how Christ told His disciples that they would have the baptism that He was baptized with? (which was a death/suffering baptism) That is being obedient unto death, enduring to the end.

Lastly, if Christ didn't have faith how could He please the Father ("this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased")? Without faith it is impossible to please God according to Hebrews, so if Christ didn't have faith He didn't please the Father. (see Hebrews 11:6 with Matthew 3:17)

I hope that helps you some. Let me know what you think. --bro. Hoss

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