Wednesday, August 20, 2014

Hoss vs Herb, 10 random questions.

 Debate between Eli "Hoss" Caldwell and Dr. Herb Evans.

HOSS: 1.) If OT saints were saved by grace through faith alone (without works) and born again (had the Spirit in them), why did they have the Law of Moses?
       HERB:  If I were Hoss, I would said that it is a a mystery. Still, I am not Hoss, so . . .

Gal 3:24, 25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
HOSS: I thought you said that you believed OT saints were saved by grace alone (no works) and that they were born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But now you say that they were not yet brought unto Christ? And you believe that the Law of Moses had the only purpose of bringing the Jews unto Christ (by the knowledge of sin, Rom. 3:20)? Your proof text did not prove anything. The point of Galatians is that when you are justified by the faith of Christ and have the Holy Spirit that you do not need the Law. Your doctrine is starting to contradict.

HOSS: 2.) What verses do you use to prove Trib saints to not need works for their salvation?
HERB: I don't have to have a verse since I do not have to defend a negative. Still you need a verse to prove the affirmative.

HOSS: How about this?

Matthew 3:
[1] In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
[7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet 

John 4:
[1] When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
[2] (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 

Mark 9:
[31] For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
[32] But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Matthew 6:
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 10:
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
[9] Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
[10] Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Matthew 19:
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 24:
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 28:
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:
[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
[20] And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luke 24:
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
[42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
[45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 3:
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
[20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
[21] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
[22] For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
[24] Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
[25] Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
[26] Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

If you read all of those passages you will notice that

1.) The kingdom was being offered to Israel and they were being warned of God's wrath and the tribulation period (Matthew 3:1-12)

2.) You will notice that the Jews were expecting Christ to baptize (John 1:25) and it was because of these prophecies about Christ sprinkling water upon them (Isa. 52:15, Ezek. 36:25). Water baptism was a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. Water baptism raised a question about purifying, John 3:25-26, and that was the law sprinkling, Numbers 8:6-7. It is also described in Hebrews 10:22. The disciples of Christ were baptizing without preaching or even understanding the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (John 4:1-2, Mark 9:31-32). Therefore water baptism had nothing to do with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

3.) The gospel being preached by John, Christ, and the twelve was the "gospel of the kingdom" and it required selling all, water baptism, and forgiving others (Matt. 24:14, Acts 2:38, 3:19, Mark 16:15-16). This gospel was being offered to Israel because that is where the kingdom would be set up, but it would go to all nations and then the end would come. 

4.) Since the gospel of the kingdom was primarily to the Jews and was to begin at Jerusalem (Matt. 10:5-7, Luke 24:47) it was to be confirmed with signs and wonders (Mark 16:15-20, Act 2:38-45) because the Jews require a sign (1 Cor. 1:22, John 4:48). 

5.) The kingdom gospel believers had to live by their own faith and be justified by their own faith (Heb. 10:22-23, 38-39, Hab. 2:4, 1 John 2:5, James 2:22, 1 Pet. 1:7-10, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 5:1-4). Man's faith has to be proven by works and made perfect through trial. Which is why they could "scarcely be saved" (1 Pet. 4:18). The Jews got this justification and their sins remitted after the tribulation period when Christ came because at that point their faith would have been tried and made perfect (Jer. 31:31-34, 32:37-42, Ezek. 36:24-31, 1 Pet. 1:7-10, Acts 3:19-26). Which is why Peter said in Acts 3, "repent therefore that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord".

HOSS: 3.) How are the millennium saints saved?
HERB: I'm not sure that they have to be saved. Some have to be healed by fruit. -- Herb Evans

Hoss: And what happens if they don't eat the fruit? What happens to those that sin in the millennium? If they don't have to be saved than do they not have to be lost? 

HOSS: 4.) When did the local church open up to include Jews and Gentiles?
         HERB: It always was open to Jews since Mathew 10 and Luke 10. Acts 2 and Cornelius comes to mind, but Gentiles were saved in the gospels.  
HOSS: Dear Dr. Evans, where is your logic? There is no local church invitation to Jews in Matthew 10....perhaps Christ's church of kingdom gospel believers as we see spoke of in Matt 16, Acts 2, Ps. 22:22-28, Heb. 2:12, and Revelation 1-3. The invitation of Matthew 10 is an invitition to accept the gospel of the kingdom. It helps if you read your proof text before you try and prove something with it. Besides, there was already a local church of any race that came to God through His word (Matt. 18:17, 23:15). 

HOSS: 5.) Can you be under the law dispensation and the grace dispensation at the same time?
        HERB: They can exist at the same time just like the other dispensations overlapped, but you cannot be saved by the law. When you say "under," please qualify. -- Herb Evans
HOSS: LOL! How can the dispensation of grace overlap with the law dispensation (Rom. 6:14)??? They're opposites. Like bondage versus freedom. 

HOSS: 6.) When did Peter get the salvation of his soul?
        HERB: The same time as the others, when he believed on the Lord. I really don't believe that when he was converted scenario. -- Herb Evans
HOSS: What did he have to believe about the Lord and when did he believe it? He didn't believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ WHILE he was preaching the gospel of the kingdom (Matt. 16:21-23, Mark 9:31-32, Luke 9:43-45 ). So obviously there are different gospels in the Bible because the death, burial, and resurrection IS our gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

HOSS: 7.) Is there a way the righteous can scarcely be saved?
        HERB: Yes, and I think you found it. -- Herb Evans
HOSS: How? My salvation is completely based on Christ's work and not of anything I have done. I am "complete in him" (Col. 2:10) and "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) if my salvation can be scarce it is because Christ scarcely paid for my sins.....but that is not true! So now you can either admit that works are involved in Peter's salvation under a different gospel than Paul, OR you can spiritualize the verse and make it mean what it doesn't say.  

HOSS: 8.) When did Peter think that the Jews in Acts 3 would have their sins blotted out?
HERB: Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 
HOSS: Therefore he was not looking BACK to the cross, rather he was looking FORWARD to the 2nd coming.
HOSS: 9.) Is anyone today sent to baptize (according to scripture) ?
       HERB: Yes, we are! -- Herb Evans
HOSS: Nope! Our pattern (Paul, 1 Tim. 1:14-16) was sent NOT to baptize (1 Cor. 1:17). Christ didn't tell him to baptize and it is not part our program. Are we sent to do something that we were sent not to do?

HOSS: 10.) Is baptism by Christ with the Holy Ghost into a person the same thing as a baptism by the Spirit with a person into Christ?  
        HERB: No such animal as the baptism by the Holy Ghost. He is not a baptizer. Baptism with the Holy Ghost occured in Acts 2 and does not occur today. 
HOSS: Is baptism by Christ with the Holy Ghost into a person the same thing as a baptism by the Spirit with a person into Christ?   

1 Corinthians 12:[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:  


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