HOSS vs HERB (Round 1)

Below is hogwash generously donated by my dear brother in Christ, Dr. Herb Evans (our favorite Brider). This is his response to my unrefutable, undeniable, unquestionable Mid-Acts teaching as presented in my previous post. My refutation is in part 2, though there is no need for refutation as it is scripture contradicting baloney. 

This is the typical thing to expect from a Brider who thinks the only division in the Bible is Old and New Testament. (which he might not would get that one right if it hadn't been placed in the Bible already) 

Anyways, Brother Evans is a great defender of the holy words of God, the King James Bible. http://evans.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/64questions.html


Him and I are not trying to attack each other personally, but we are trying to show each other the truth....and maybe have a little fun while doing it (so pardon our sarcasm). 


You may be thinking that it is carnal to debate (Romans 1:29, 2 Cor. 12:20). You would be correct, which is why I have to claim "well nobody is perfect" at this time. 

Pray for me....

MAD REPRESENTATIVE HOSS CARTWRIGHT versus HERB EVANS

MID ACTS DISPENSATIONALISM

Regarding their Invisible, Mystical, Universal Church of All Believers and their Mystical Baptism

Hoss: Oh, I see.

Evans: Actually, you don't!

Hoss: It is quite obvious just by a little Bible reading that there is a "mystical" church that we are "mystically" baptized into.

Evans: Nothing is obvious if is only found in a pontificated claim that is not supported by definitive scripture.

Hoss: This "mystical church" is called the "body of Christ" . . .

Evans: The term "mystical" church is not found in scripture, but the "body of Christ" is found. Only churches with locality are found in scripture, or else the church is used generically like the husband and the wife.

Hoss: . . . and you get in it when you believe the gospel --not by any baptism whether it is by, with, or for anything. A "mystical baptism" . . .

Evans: No, you do NOT get into the body of Christ when you believe the gospel; rather you get IN CHRIST when you get saved by REPENTING and believing the gospel.

Hoss: . . . (1 Cor. 12:13) is describing how we got in this "mystical" body of Christ (which also has the title "Church") but it is not saying when we got in this mystical body.

Evans: Unfortunately, you believe in the DUAL church and DUAL body theory in which you arbitrarily select which is which per your already self-conceived opinions. Still, this passage does not say how or when we get into this body. It only says what the enabling agency in regard to the baptism is that it is the enabling factor, (namely, By the Spirit of God. The same preposition BY is used in the dozen verses that precede verse thirteen as an enabler rather than a Baptizer. Again the Holy Spirit is never the Baptizer but is always the Element in any kind of Spirit baptism. Jesus is the Baptizer per Matthew 3:11.

Hoss: Now I don't know what the Baptist say or have said....but here is a little King James Bible for you. (keep in mind that I am a M.A.D. Baptist, Also known as a "hyper" (taken from my most recent M.A.D. Baptist propaganda).

Evans: Yes, you are indeed MAD to carve up the Book of Acts that way, and it is Hyper, Hyper dispensationalism. That is why you refuse to be water baptized, but we can take that on in another sitting. But I hate to tell you, but you are not a Baptist in any historical sense. You are a modified Stamite and/or a Bullingerite.

Hoss: I may have been over emphasizing the baptism by the Spirit that puts us into the body of Christ. Paul says that we get in the body of Christ when we believed the gospel.

Evans: Welcome to the universal, mystical church club that entertains this false concept.

Hoss: 1 Corinthians 12:13 is explaining how we get in the body, but it is not saying when we got in it. If you are trying to convince somebody when you got in the body of Christ and when the body of Christ began, this may be the best way to go and avoid the discussion of baptism with and by the Spirit.

Evans: You do well to advise your universal church brothers not to discuss it, considering the trouble they have got into trying to produce someone in the scriptures that was so baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Hoss: Ephesians 3: 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [7] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

There we see that the Gentiles were able to be put in the "same body" as Jews "by the gospel". Therefore believing the gospel puts someone in the body of Christ. Also notice verse 7 where Paul said he was made the minister of this gospel that puts people in the body.  

     

Evans: “Able to be put” is the key phrase. Unfortunately, this passage does not say anyone was put into the same body BY the gospel. It says that they should be fellow heirs of the same body. That is the mystery; the the middle wall of partition has been broken down between them, and that the Gentiles are no more strangers and aliens. It says that both Jew and Gentile s are partakers of the same promises BY the gospel. Invisible Churchers have “BY” trouble.

Hoss:  Here is Paul's gospel and what we know about it.

1). This is what the gospel is.

1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Cor. 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Evans: That is all fine as far as it goes, but did Paul not preach anything else?

Rom. 4: 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness . . .

 [22] And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (faith) [23] Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; [24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; [25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Evans: That is all fine too, but is that all Paul preached? How about the WHOLE COUNCIL OF GOD that he preached, which you folks do not?

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Evans: Now that you wasted your time proving salvation by faith and what we agree upon, do you intend to prove anything else?

Hoss: 2.) It does not include water baptism.

1 Cor. 1: 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. [18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Evans: The gospel is not water baptism nor does it include it,  the Campbellites notwithstanding, but water baptism is a picture of the gospel, even the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins (Romans 6). Paul's mission was not to baptize; he was an evangelistic apostle that left the rest to the churches. Still, Paul did baptize some folks and gives the non-dispensational reason. John the Baptist baptized many and Jesus' disciples also baptized folks in their evangelistic missions, and Philip baptized the eunuch, despite Calvas' claims that only elders of the church are to baptize.

1 Cor 1:14 - 16 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Hoss:  3.) Finally, the gospel Paul preached was a new revelation, that just by believing on and trusting Christ and His finished work you could be saved (as seen in #1).

Gal. 1: 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Evans: It was not a new gospel; it was the same old gospel that the other disciples preached. Paul was not given a new revelation of the gospel, but he was taught by revelation rather than being taught by the others. That gospel began with John the Baptist preaching the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the WORLD and included repentance and faith for the remission of sins. The progressive revelation of that gospel to Paul was that it was based upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS (Paul revealed this basis in Corinthians). Water baptism and the gospel are the same from John until now except for additional information due to progressive revelation.

Mark 1:1 - 3 The BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Hoss 4.) Finally, if we believe that gospel which is the preaching of the cross, then we are "partakers" of that "one bread" which puts us into the "one body".

Eph. 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (the preaching of the cross)

Evans: While it is true that God hath reconciled Jew and Gentile in one body BY the cross rather than BY the Holy Spirit, it is also true that the body here is the actual bruised and bleeding physical body of Christ on the cross. Linking the bleeding body of Christ in 2:16 with the body (3:6) that Jew and Gentile are fellowheirs within amounts to mixing and matching of the worse sort.  Instead, of the Jews having a separate congregational body for just them (the tabernacle and the temple and the synagogue and the church in the wilderness), now, Gentiles are included in the same local congregational body.

Hoss: 1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

That is how we got in the body of Christ, BY THE GOSPEL (Eph. 3:6). The body of Christ could not have started at any other time or by any kind of baptism.....it is by the gospel which was given by revelation to Paul in Acts 9.

Evans: But it does not say that they got into the body of Christ by the gospel in Eph. 3:6

Hoss: Paul's gospel started with Paul in Acts 9 so that is when the body of Christ started.

Evans: But it does not say that the gospel started in Acts nine. The BEGINNING of the Gospel started in Mark 1 with John the Baptist's ministry. The gospel and the body of Christ are not the same nor do they have simultaneous beginnings.

Hoss: You are mentally sick if you think that that is talking about a local anything. If you do the reading, you can obviously see that all Jews and Gentiles in this age are in one "mystical" body....not all in one local body.

Evans: I am mentally sick? I am not the one that is involved in these mystical hallucinations and intangible things that no one can see, hear, or feel. The Jews did not deal in mystical entities; they dealt in tangible entities when it can to their local congregations and local synagogues.  Evidently, you do not believe in rising before the hoary head, since it was said in another dispensation.          

Hoss: See you in the funny papers, - Brother Hoss

Evans: Do you mean the funny papers of Stam, O'hair, Bullinger, Terry (Mclean) and the Pirates from which you get your material?