(My latest reply in mustard font. Dr. Evans insist on this format of debate, I realize it is hard to follow and very long.)
Brother Herb,
These are getting pretty long and not getting anywhere, when should we stop? Mid-Acts (Acts 9) is unrefutable, but you seem to be under the impression that Hyper-Baptistism is unrefutable. You have no doubt tangled with better MAD brothers than I and if you haven't learnt the truth through them you probably won't learn it from me either. You are too old, that is all there is to it. But so that you won't think I am chicken, I have composed this response.
It is getting a little hard to follow with all the different colors going on and you have claimed all the good colors. If you respond to this, use purple or pink font, I have dibs on orange. (below I used a mustard type color, not like Frenchs though, more of an off brand of mustard)
Thanks for the fun debate.....you stubborn old brider coot! (respectively) -Brother Hoss
MAD REPRESENTATIVE HOSS CARTWRIGHT versus HERB EVANS, Part 2
MID ACTS DISPENSATIONALISM
Regarding their Invisible, Mystical, Universal Church of All Believers and their Mystical Baptism
Hoss: Oh, I see.
Evans: Actually, you don't!
Hoss: Actually, that was referring to you letting me know what the debate was about.
Evans: Actually, I could not pass up the comeback.
Hoss: Yeah, I would have said the same thing.
Hoss: It is quite obvious just by a little Bible reading that there is a "mystical" church that we are "mystically" baptized into.
Evans: Nothing is obvious if is only found in a pontificated claim that is not supported by definitive scripture.
Hoss: I have no idea what "pontificated" means.
Evans: It is a claim by a Pontiff or Pope.
Hoss: Ok.
Hoss: This "mystical church" is called the "body of Christ" . . .
Evans: The term "mystical" church is not found in scripture, but the "body of Christ" is found. Only churches with locality are found in scripture, or else the church is used generically like the husband and the wife.
Hoss: I know that, "mystical church" is the term you have been using, notice the quotes. You think churches with locality are the only churches mentioned in scripture?
Evans: Yes, even the one located in heaven.
Hoss: Ok.....
Hoss: I suppose you then believe that the one body (or also called "church") mentioned in Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Corinthians, and Romans is actually thousands of little bodies (or churches) made up of tithing, chicken eating, red neck Baptist??? (with me included in that)
Evans: Big churches, little churches, middle size churches are EACH separately ONE BODY. So ALSO is Christ ONE BODY.
Hoss: Separate bodies of Christ.....sure. "One body" can only mean that there is "one body" period. But you take it to mean that every Baptist church is "one body".....so you believe that there are thousands of one bodies? The Bible talks about many members being in the body of Christ....but never many bodies being in Christ. You cannot count the number of bodies in/of Christ, there is only one. That body is a spiritual one composed of all saved people.
You seem to have the word "church" misunderstood. You have to look at a verses context to see what kind of church it is. "Church" and "body" do not mean the same thing. (though the "one body" is a church)
1 Cor. 12:
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[14] For the body is not one member, but many.
[15] If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[16] And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
[18] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
[19] And if they were all one member, where were the body?
[20] But now are they many members, yet but one body.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[14] For the body is not one member, but many.
[15] If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[16] And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
[18] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
[19] And if they were all one member, where were the body?
[20] But now are they many members, yet but one body.
Hoss: You mean there is not "one body"?
Evans: No, I do not mean that – Eph. 4:4, 5.
Hoss: So even though there is only "one body" I can still point at churches as I drive down the road and say "there is a body...there's another....oh I see another one....oh wait that one doesn't count since they aren't Baptist".
Hoss: There is only one body, but there are many members (1 Cor. 12, Col. 1-2, and Eph. 4).
Evans: Yes!
Hoss: Yes...but I don't think you understand.
Hoss: Is it not a bit arrogant to say that your church is the body of Christ?
Evans: NO!
Hoss: So if someone start a church, it is not arrogant to say "look, I started a body of Christ....I let me water baptize you and let me put you in this body of Christ that I created". Yep....plain loony.
Hoss: Dr. Reese has created a bunch of bodies of Christ then hasn't he?
Evans: If you say so.
Hoss: Loony...again.
Hoss: What body was Paul in? He was not a member of one church but a traveling missionary.
Evans: It is difficult to say what church Paul belonged to, but to say that he was churchless is a stretch. Still, depending on when, Paul was a member of a church with which he assembled.
Hoss: Yes, "difficult" it is. Paul says "we" when he is talking about being in the body of Christ. Did Paul leave the Corinthians church and join the Romans? How exactly did that work?
1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 12:
[4] For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
[5] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
[5] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Hoss: If I leave my church did I get cut off from the body of Christ?
Evans: Since you admit that you were never baptized, you were never in the body of Christ although you may be IN CHRIST, a different matter. But suppose you were a member of some body of Christ somewhere and you left. It would depend on whether you were disciplined out or you moved. If you were disciplined out of that body of Christ and committed to Satan for the destruction of your flesh. If you moved to another location, you would be bound to seek membership in another local body of Christ. But let us try Antioch Baptist Church for starters
Acts 11:25, 26 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul. And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the CHURCH, and taught many prople.
Hoss: Interesting, so if I got buptized but then left my church I got out of the body of Christ?
I do agree that "in Christ" does not mean being in the body of Christ. I dealt with that in my Ephesians PDF notes. Look at your words "suppose you were a member of some body of Christ " some body of Christ. Go ahead and confess...how many bodies of Christ do you estimate there are? Again, "one body" mean "one body". There are many physical churches, but not every church is the body of Christ. The body of Christ is spiritual, but it is called a church as it fits the definition.
Hoss: . . . and you get in it when you believe the gospel --not by any baptism whether it is by, with, or for anything. A "mystical baptism" . . .
Evans: No, you do NOT get into the body of Christ when you believe the gospel; rather you get IN CHRIST when you get saved by REPENTING and believing the gospel.
Hoss: What does "repent" mean? If someone is going to get saved they have to have a change of mind and decide that they will trust Christ instead of what they were previously trusting to takeaway sins.
Evans: You are not answering my question except with a question. Still, your question does not reflect the fact that a person cannot believe without repenting whatever your definition is. Still, if you repent and believe the gospel, you still are not in the body of Christ.
Hoss: You contradicted 1 Cor. 10:17 and Eph. 3:6.
Hoss: . . . (1 Cor. 12:13) is describing how we got in this "mystical" body of Christ (which also has the title "Church") but it is not saying when we got in this mystical body.
Evans: Unfortunately, you believe in the DUAL church and DUAL body theory in which you arbitrarily select which is which per your already self-conceived opinions. Still, this passage does not say how or when we get into this body. It only says what the enabling agency in regard to the baptism is that it is the enabling factor, (namely, By the Spirit of God. The same preposition BY is used in the dozen verses that precede verse thirteen as an enabler rather than a Baptizer. Again the Holy Spirit is never the Baptizer but is always the Element in any kind of Spirit baptism. Jesus is the Baptizer per Matthew 3:11.
Hoss: Well I am still doing better than you, you believe in thousands of bodies of Christ if each church building and its attendants is a body of Christ.
Evans: I don’t think that you are, especially since you can’t seem to get what I believe correct without misrepresenting it. I do not believe that the church building is the body of Christ; I believe it is the place where the body of Christ meets and assembles.
Hoss: The members (who are in the body of Christ) assemble together, but there is only one body of Christ. Not many one bodies of Christ as you suggest.
Hoss” The Bible teaches in one spiritual body that has no Jew or Greek and where Christ is the Head.
Evans: In Christ is so but not in the body of Christ. In the local church there are Jews and Gentiles. And in the body of Christ there are also males and females, bond and free, contrary to the passage that you have in mind. Do women members preach or teach in your local church? Why?
Hoss: 1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
In the physical church there are men and women, blacks and whites, etc. but in the body of Christ there is no difference, no distinction, all are one in Christ's body. Again, the "local church" is not the body of Christ but it contains members who are in the body of Christ.
You do not believe in one spiritual body of Christ that all saved people are in. You believe in many one bodies that you call "local churches". Which is why you are so confused.....
Hoss: That is a "church" because it is a called out assembly of everyone Christ has saved since Acts 9, Paul being first (read 1 Tim. 1 on that).
Evans: By what made up theological concept did Paul become the first in any called out assembly let alone in Acts 9. Was Paul baptized in Acts nine by water or by the Holy Spirit? Verse and chapter? Every church is a called out assembly as well as the local government's assemblies. How was Paul the first if Paul persecuted the church prior to his being saved?
1 Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Evans: Or are you prepared to say that Paul persecuted the local church or CHURCH OF GOD or the mystical church of God?
1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Evans: If the apostles were set in the church FIRST, are you suggesting that Paul started a second church? Are there two Churches or three in Acts nine?
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were IN CHRIST BEFORE ME.
Evans: If others were IN CHRIST before Paul, what does that mean?
Hoss: Those are the same ol Ruckman type arguments against Paul being the first one in the body of Christ.
"In Christ" does not mean being in the body of Christ.
Not every "Church" is the body of Christ. God has had many churches throughout different ages.
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Hebrews 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
There is the kingdom believers who believed and preached the kingdom gospel in the kingdom church (Matt.-Acts). John and Peter's message was a prophesied kingdom, prophesied king, etc. but Paul's message was not revealed, it was a mystery that h received by revelation.
There are several gospels, several churches, but one body of Christ.
1 Tim. 1:
[11] According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Paul's gospel was a mystery, it was a revelation given to Paul, by believing that gospel is how we get in that body. We partake of that "one bread", we believe the "preaching of the cross". This is what we are debating about http://av1611studyblog.
Hoss: However, the members of that one body can assemble locally as a called out assembly thus creating a church. There is one spiritual church, but there are millions of earthly assemblies.
Evans: Any church or congregation can and does assemble as a body of Christ locally. Your mystical church cannot assemble locally and the WHOLE church cannot come TOGETHER as the local church can. The can is not big enough.
Hoss: You did not pay attention. Look at your words ''assemble as a body of Christ locally". There is never a body of Christ in the Bible, there is THE body of Christ which there is only one of.
There is one body of Christ that is spiritual, all a local church is is a bunch of people getting together who are members of the spiritual body of Christ trying to each the word and serve God.
Hoss: Now I don't know what the Baptist say or have said....but here is a little King James Bible for you. (keep in mind that I am a M.A.D. Baptist, Also known as a "hyper" (taken from my most recent M.A.D. Baptist propaganda).
Evans: Yes, you are indeed MAD to carve up the Book of Acts that way, and it is Hyper, Hyper dispensationalism. That is why you refuse to be water baptized, but we can take that on in another sitting. But I hate to tell you, but you are not a Baptist in any historical sense. You are a modified Stamite and/or a Bullingerite.
Hoss: Well praise the Lord! If you are the definition of a good Baptist than I don't really care to be one!
Evans: That is fine! You are a Johnnie Come Lately!
Hoss: "Hyperdispensationalist is in the eye of the beholder.
Evans: And you have eye and "by" trouble.
Hoss: Oh really.
Hoss: And actually, I don't like Bullenger or Stam. Both are Bible correctors, both are Yankees or from England, and I have never read or consulted any of there work.
Evans: Good! You are better off because of it.
Hoss: I wouldn't disagree.
Hoss: I may have been over emphasizing the baptism by the Spirit that puts us into the body of Christ. Paul says that we get in the body of Christ when we believed the gospel.
Evans: Welcome to the universal, mystical church club that entertains this false concept.
Hoss: Boloney.
Evans: Bologna in the Greek! Irrelevant!
Hoss: Only in a late manuscript....it was probably added later on.
Hoss: 1 Corinthians 12:13 is explaining how we get in the body, but it is not saying when we got in it. If you are trying to convince somebody when you got in the body of Christ and when the body of Christ began, this may be the best way to go and avoid the discussion of baptism with and by the Spirit.
Evans: You do well to advise your universal church brothers not to discuss it, considering the trouble they have got into trying to produce someone in the scriptures that was so baptized by the Holy Spirit.
Hoss: Boloney....again, are you a butcher/meatman?
Evans: You already said that! Irrelevant!
Hoss: Yeah...pastrami would have been more witty at that point.
Hoss: Ephesians 3: 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [7] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
There we see that the Gentiles were able to be put in the "same body" as Jews "by the gospel". Therefore believing the gospel puts someone in the body of Christ. Also notice verse 7 where Paul said he was made the minister of this gospel that puts people in the body.
Evans: “Able to be put” is the key phrase. Unfortunately, this passage does not say anyone was put into the same body BY the gospel. It says that they should be fellow heirs of the same body. That is the mystery; the middle wall of partition has been broken down between them, and that the Gentiles are no more strangers and aliens. It says that both Jew and Gentile s are partakers of the same promises BY the gospel. Invisible Churchers have “BY” trouble.
Hoss: That is a lie, yes it does. Verse 6,
Evans: Could you be a bit more specific?
Hoss: I already did...
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (HOW?), and of the same body (HOW?), and partakers of his promise in Christ (HOW?) by the gospel. Yep...that's what I thought it said, BY THE GOSPEL! NOT YOUR WATER BUPTISM.
Also see 1 Cor. 10:16-17.
Hoss: That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (HOW?), and of the same body (HOW?), and partakers of his promise in Christ (HOW?) by the gospel. Yep...that's what I thought it said, BY THE GOSPEL! Are you sure you're a real doctor?
Evans: That is true, partakers of his promise BY THE GOSPEL, but that is a long way from being fellow heirs or being placed in the same body by the gospel or by some ethereal mystical baptism. Nothing here suggests this, and nothing here suggests that the gospel places anyone in any body. That is your imagination being forced into this passage.
No, I am an honorary doctor by Trinity Baptist now Antioch Baptist in Knoxville, Tennessee. That is where I met Dave Reese.
Hoss: Yeah, "Dr." is irrelevant, I just wanted some mud to sling (carnality).
Anyway, Eph. 3:6 is a list of what the gospel does for us. Takeout the other two things from the list and maybe you will see it.
"That the Gentiles should be....of the same body.....by the gospel "
Hoss: Here is Paul's gospel and what we know about it.
1). This is what the gospel is.
1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1 Cor. 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Evans: That is all fine as far as it goes, but did Paul not preach anything else?
Hoss: Yes he did preach other things.
Evans: Good! We agree!
Hoss: Uh oh.....this is not good then....
Rom. 4: 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness . . .
[22] And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (faith) [23] Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; [24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; [25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Evans: That is all fine too, but is that all Paul preached? How about the WHOLE COUNCIL OF GOD that he preached, which you folks do not?
Hoss: What does that mean? I teach the whole Bible rightly divided (II Tim. 2:15)
Evans: No, you wrongly divide the word of truth. All Hypers do that.
Hoss: Oh yeah, well your a anti dispensationalist that couldn't rightly divide a Kit Kat bar.
Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Evans: Now that you wasted your time proving salvation by faith and what we agree upon, do you intend to prove anything else?
Hoss: Ummm...sure. You plan on contradicting scripture anymore?
Evans: You have not specified anything that I supposedly contradicted. In fact, you are demonstrating that you do not even have any scripture to clinch your claim.
Hoss: You have contradicted the "one body" teaching of 1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:5, etc. and you contradict the fact that when we believe the gospel we are put in the body of Christ 1 Cor. 10:17 and Eph. 3:6.
Hoss: 2.) It does not include water baptism.
1 Cor. 1: 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. [18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Evans: The gospel is not water baptism nor does it include it, the Campbellites notwithstanding, but water baptism is a picture of the gospel, even the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins (Romans 6). Paul's mission was not to baptize; he was an evangelistic apostle that left the rest to the churches. Still, Paul did baptize some folks and gives the non-dispensational reason. John the Baptist baptized many and Jesus' disciples also baptized folks in their evangelistic missions, and Philip baptized the eunuch, despite Calvas' claims that only elders of the church are to baptize.
1 Cor 1:14 - 16 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
Hoss: I agree. Water baptism represent the gospel it accompanies. For us, that is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Though Peter and John did not baptize to represent the finished work of Christ because they did not even understand it. (Mark 8:31-32).
Evans: Well, without knowing the significance of the Lamb of God taking away the sin of the WORLD that John the Baptist preached and the lifting up the Son like the serpent by Moses, they preached what was revealed to them, and that included the remission of sins and the resurrection. Paul clarified it all by explaining that the death, burial, and resurrection was the BASIS of that remission of sins. But fellows like you are intimating that no one was saved by the finished work of Christ prior to Paul’s mention of the death, burial, and resurrection in the Corinthians. If you are looking for a lie, that would be it.
Hoss: Christ's NT blood does different things depending on what you are in. Accept for in this age, salvation requires a faith that works rather than a faith that "worketh not". The shed blood of Christ is a big part of Israel's New Covenant and the promised kingdom.
Hoss: John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. (John sent to baptize) Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (the twelve sent to baptize, also see Mark 16)
What do you make of that?
Evans: It is not what I make of that; it is what you are making of that?
Hoss: You don't get it.
Hoss: Why were Peter and John sent to baptize but not Paul?
Evans: I guess because Paul was not around yet.
Hoss: No, no, no, Mr. Evans.....Peter and John were commissioned to buptize, but when Paul got saved he was never commissioned to buptize.
Hoss: "teach all nations" sounds kind of like evangelism to me.
Evans: Sounds like a lot more than evangelism. Sounds like water baptism also!
Hoss: I agree....and totally different from Paul and his ministry and teaching for this present age.
Hoss: Why was Paul not sent to baptize but Peter and John were? How about that one, eh? Sort of makes you want to rightly divide....
Evans: I don’t know. Makes me wonder if you are grasping at straws.
Hoss: Is that the best you got? "I don't know". You think I am grasping at straws? This is serious scriptural differences in the apostles commissions proving the distinction of Paul's teaching and ministry.
Hoss: 3.) Finally, the gospel Paul preached was a new revelation, that just by believing on and trusting Christ and His finished work you could be saved (as seen in #1).
Gal. 1: 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Evans: It was not a new gospel; it was the same old gospel that the other disciples preached. Paul was not given a new revelation of the gospel, but he was taught by revelation rather than being taught by the others. That gospel began with John the Baptist preaching the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the WORLD and included repentance and faith for the remission of sins. The progressive revelation of that gospel to Paul was that it was based upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS (Paul revealed this basis in Corinthians). Water baptism and the gospel are the same from John until now except for additional information due to progressive revelation.
Mark 1:1 - 3 The BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Hoss: More baloney? Your [sic] on a role! [sic]
Evans: Is that your best argument . . . baloney? Obviously, you want no part of the stated point, namely, the beginning of the gospel as linked to John the Baptists’ ministry as found in Mark 1:1-3. – Herb Evans
Hoss: There is more than one gospel brother, John's and Peter's gospel was the gospel of the kingdom that did require works (such as selling all, enduring to the end, water baptism). Paul's gospel clearly began with Paul according to Romans 16:25, Gal. 1, Eph. 3.
Hoss: You never see anyone else in the Bible preach what Paul taught....unless you read it in there yourself.
Evans: So, no one was saved nor benefited from the finished work of Christ on the cross until Paul?
Hoss: I have never said that. I do point out that Peter's message about Christ's death is much different than Paul's in Acts 13.
Hoss: Peter preached water buptism for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38). Paul taught otherwise. Paul and Peter did not agree on many things at the start. Read Acts 10, 11, 15, 16, and then the whole book of Galatians would do you good.
Evans: Your Campbellite imitation notwithstanding, did John the Baptist and Jesus and Mark and Luke also preach remission of sins. Jesus said it was by blood and not water. I do not respond to your scripture addresses without a stated rationale’ to them.
Mat 26:28 For this IS my blood of the new testament, which IS shed for many for the remission of sins.
Evans: Notice that the blood depicted by the cup in the gospels was said IS shed for the remission of sins, a done deal. To pretend that either the gospel or the New Testament began in Acts 9 is the height of dispensational folly.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Evans: Again, Mark discloses the beginning of the remission of sins, linking it with John the Baptist. Did you know that the law and the prophets were UNTIL John? A hyper dispy should know that.
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Did you know that Luke prophesied that Jesus would give knowledge unto His people BY the remission of their sins?
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Evans: It seems like MAD churches are dropping the ball on the things that Jesus commanded let alone the other great commission scriptures that involve baptism. Oh, I know, Paul countermanded Jesus . . . right?
Hoss: 1 Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Paul is our apostle that we are to follow. Paul is the apotle to the Gentiles and Christ was a minister of the circumcision (Rom. 11:13, 15:8. Paul did not countermand anybody....Christ was speaking through him. Get Mclean's book Jesus wasn't talking to you.
Hoss: Didn't you know there is more than one gospel in the Bible? Are you sure your [sic] a real doctor?
Evans: Well, Antioch Baptist, formerly Trinity Baptist thought so; perhaps, they were wrong in cap and gowning me. But, no, I did not know that there was more than one gospel except that there was more than one mention of glad tidings and good news not to be confused with “THE” gospel. Of course, Hypers try to take advantage of nuances of English to buttress their claims.
Hoss: So you think what the Bible calls the "gospel of the kingdom" is the same thing Paul preached? Please read my article http://av1611studyblog.
Hoss: See you in the funny papers, - Brother Hoss
Hoss: The gospels and early Acts record the gospel of the kingdom, that is Christ as the King of Israel and Son of God and if you don't believe, repent, get baptized, and sell all He is going to baptize you with fire! http://av1611studyblog.
Evans: Since Jesus is many things, I don’t think that it is proper exegeses to separate Jesus into separate compartments and/or dispensational time lines. If a man is not born again, and there is only one new birth, he cannot see or enter the KINGdom of God. Still, you would do well to study your own KJB rather than Terry (McLean) and the Pirates.
Hoss: I don't understand what you are saying....God obviously deals with people different ways through different ages.
Hoss 4.) Finally, if we believe that gospel which is the preaching of the cross, then we are "partakers" of that "one bread" which puts us into the "one body".
Eph. 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (the preaching of the cross)
Evans: While it is true that God hath reconciled Jew and Gentile in one body BY the cross rather than BY the Holy Spirit, it is also true that the body here is the actual bruised and bleeding physical body of Christ on the cross. Linking the bleeding body of Christ in 2:16 with the body (3:6) that Jew and Gentile are fellowheirs within amounts to mixing and matching of the worse sort. Instead, of the Jews having a separate congregational body for just them (the tabernacle and the temple and the synagogue and the church in the wilderness), now, Gentiles are included in the same local congregational body.
Hoss: GOOD GRIEF, MORE BALONEY! Do your homework Dr. ! Read the verse.
Evans: Calm down, and don’t go into an emotional rant just because you cannot address my comments or points and feel that you have to say something.
Hoss: Well, I have no idea what you are saying. This "local body" hullibeloo is a bunch of stuff. There are NOT many "local" bodies o Christ, there is only one body of Christ. You have the physical church of members congregating together confused with the body of Christ. Let me explain something about the number 1. The term "one" is always used to mean that there is not 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,.....but actually "one" as in "1".
Ephesians 4:
[3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Does each "local body" have its own "one Spirit"? Does each "local body" have its own hope, Lord, faith, or God? Eh?
Boloney? Pastrami? Pulled pork? Spam? Can of sardines? Makes no difference to me.....
Hoss: 1 Cor. 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Who is the "one body"? The saved people. Why? "for we are all partakers of that one bread." referring to believing the "preaching of the cross".
Evans: You, like most Hypers, do not look at context when straining for a proof text. This is a local church with a local Lord’s Supper. The one bread and one body are metaphors for the local Corinthian Church taking the Lord Supper, who have partaken of the bread of life. The Corinthian local church, like Israel, have partaken of the sacrifice.
1 Cor 10:16 – 18: 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
Hoss: Ah! Could this be? Brother Herb, did you say what I think you said? "context "!!! You get a smiley face 
!
Take the Bible literally Mr. Evans, Paul gives allegories and he tells you when he does it (Gal. 4:24). The Lord's Supper is a memorial of the body and blood of Christ on the cross i.e. His death. Paul says that the Corinthians were "one body" for they "partook" of that death. That would be talking about us believing the gospel, "the preaching of the cross". Let's go through it again brother!
Ephesians 2:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
1 Corinthians 1:
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1 Corinthians 2:
[2] For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Ephesians 3:
[6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
1 Corinthians 10:
[16] The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
[17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
[17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Getting in the body of Christ is never mentioned with water baptism, it is always BY the gospel that Paul preached. (which was a mystery, which was also a revelation given to Paul)
Galatians 1:
[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
[12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
[12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 2:[2] And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Timothy 1:
[11] According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
You think John the Buptist and Peter preached the same thing Paul did? Find me where they preached "ye are not under the law but under grace". Find me where they preached that though just believing on the gospel and trusting Christ alone, no baptism, circumcision, works of law, selling all, and enduring to the end---none of that just plain faith that "worketh not".
Don't try and pull that anti right divisional non sense where you fumble around John 3 with these verses.
John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I know all the tricks brother...all the tricks. You try and pull that one on me and I will give you John 14:12.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 
Don't give me that stuff man....Mid-Acts hyperdispensationalism is unrefutable because it is Bible fact. In the gospels and Hebrews-Revelation salvation is by a faith that works. READ James 2, you will find faith that works. READ Hebrews 11, you will find faith that works. READ the gospels, you will find faith that works. (selling all, baptism, law,)
But you know what Paul says?
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Galatians 3:
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Who else talks like that brother? Don't try and give me that about James 2 being justification before men.....I know all the tricks. You are never to seek to be justified before men (Luke 16:15)! James is aimed at tribulation saints and if the tribulation saint tries to be justified before men he WILL TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST.
Mid-Acts is UNREFUTABLE sir. You create contradiction in scripture if you chose otherwise.
Contradiction
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Colossians 3:
[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
[2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Contradiction
Matthew 6:
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Contradiction
Matthew 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
2 Thessalonians 3:
[10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
[11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
[12] Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
[11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
[12] Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
Chew on that Herby!
Hoss: 1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
That is how we got in the body of Christ, BY THE GOSPEL (Eph. 3:6). The body of Christ could not have started at any other time or by any kind of baptism.....it is by the gospel which was given by revelation to Paul in Acts 9.
Evans: But it does not say that they got into the body of Christ by the gospel in Eph. 3:6
Hoss: Yes it did....
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (HOW?), and of the same body (HOW?), and partakers of his promise in Christ (HOW?) by the gospel
Evans: I see in Eph 3:6 only one thing done BY the gospel and that is being partaker of God’s promise IN CHRIST. Also, the revelation was revealed unto the apostles and prophets BY the Spirit. Perhaps, you could show where the body of Christ is entered BY the Gospel. Like I said, you Hypers seem to have "BY" trouble. Still the mystery and revelation is not some mystical body of Christ but that Jew and Gentile should be fellow heirs of the same body, something that is unheard of among Jews.
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets BY the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ BY the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Hoss: I have already refuted that.
Hoss: Paul's gospel started with Paul in Acts 9 so that is when the body of Christ started.
Evans: But it does not say that the gospel started in Acts nine. The BEGINNING of the Gospel started in Mark 1 with John the Baptist's ministry. The gospel and the body of Christ are not the same nor do they have simultaneous beginnings.
Hoss: Nope, you missed it! Paul's gospel is not the kingdom gospel.
Evans: Telling me that I missed it without telling me what I missed and referring me to a web site without answering my points and objections is just HYPE.
Hoss: That is my website.
Hoss: Herb, if you don't do your homework before you come to class then you won't get a smiley face sticker. HELLO? Are you there? Knock-knock....bye-bye!
Evans: I know they have sent a boy to do a man’s job, but sarcastic children’s games are not arguments. But then you don’t seem to have any argments. Shall I go read Terry Mclean and Dave Reese? I’ve already tangled with them to no avail on their part.
Hoss: Look old man, I don't have to have arguments. Mid-Acts is unrefutable and you just can't grasp any right division aside from OT and NT.
Hoss: You are mentally sick if you think that that is talking about a local anything. If you do the reading, you can obviously see that all Jews and Gentiles in this age are in one "mystical" body....not all in one local body.
Evans: I am mentally sick? I am not the one that is involved in these mystical hallucinations and intangible things that no one can see, hear, or feel. The Jews did not deal in mystical entities; they dealt in tangible entities when it can to their local congregations and local synagogues. Evidently, you do not believe in rising before the hoary head, since it was said in another dispensation.
Hoss: Come on Brother Herb, lay off the bottle! 2 Cor. 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Evans: You can always tell when a Hyper Dispy is out of gas, you then get this kind of thing.
Hoss: Is "hyper dispy" the best you got? Some ol, same ol brother!
Hoss: See you in the funny papers, - Brother Hoss
Evans: Do you mean the funny papers of Stam, O'hair, Bullinger, Terry (Mclean) and the Pirates from which you get your material?
Hoss: I mean the Sunday comics...Garfield...Peanuts...
Evans: Oh I don’t read the funnies since I grew up. Still, I understand that you are still trying to grow up to be somebody, something I am too old to care about or do.
Hoss: Old guy, I don't care if you read the funnies or not. But, reading the funnies is a mark of spirituality.
"Still, I understand that you are still trying to grow up to be somebody" what does that mean?
II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Hoss: [1] In those days came Herb the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.[4] And the same Herb had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.[7] But when he saw many of the hyperdispensationalist and non-Briders come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Evans: And Hoss claims that my writing is weird, par for the course, double standard with Hyper Dispies.
Hoss: Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Hoss: Have you sold all that have? Have you drunk a bottle of Clorox? Are you sure the whole Bible written TO you? (or do you just rightly divide when it is most convenient?)
Evans: No!
Hoss: Well then you are disobedient to your precious kingdom gospel!
Grace and Peace, (and I hope my sarcasm didn't offend you....much) -- Brother Hoss
Evans: No! I believe a child should behave like a child.
Hoss: I can't think of any good comebacks on that....I'll get back with you.
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