Buptist: 1. Did water baptism cease for the present dispensation? Paul baptized in the present dispensation and he never said it would cease like he said about other matters such as circumcision and holy days. Why didn't he baptize during the time that he wrote his prison epistles? I doubt that he, as a prisoner, had the liberty to baptize.
HOSS: Well water baptism was done by pouring/sprinkling, so he very well could have baptized in prison. See this post done by Pastor David O'Steen. http://kjbstudy.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-mode-of-johns-baptism.html
Paul admitted that Christ did not tell him to baptize.....so the fact that Paul did it does not effect us in the least. What Paul does (outside of Christ's commandments) does not matter to me. I am not a Paul worshiper like you.
1 Corinthians 1:
[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Also, water baptism was only a command for APOSTLES to perform (Mark 16 and Matthew 28). Do you think that you are an apostle?
2. Did he baptize in the Acts period in an effort to reach the Jews? The unbelieving Jews rejected kingdom water baptism (Lk. 7:30). How would water baptism impress them and provoke them to jealousy? How would baptizing a Gentile and his household at midnight impress or provoke the Jews (Acts 16:33)?
HOSS: Paul baptized as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. Your point is very weak. The Jews also rejected the SIGNS of the twelve in the gospels and Acts.....but Paul still did those to provoke the Jews.
3. There were divers washings for Israel in the OT but in the KJB (our final authority) water baptism does not show up until John's ministry. He received it from heaven. I don't think its accurate to say that John's baptism was just like all the other Jewish washings (I realize that John's ministry was during the OT).
3. There were divers washings for Israel in the OT but in the KJB (our final authority) water baptism does not show up until John's ministry. He received it from heaven. I don't think its accurate to say that John's baptism was just like all the other Jewish washings (I realize that John's ministry was during the OT).
HOSS: Baptism is a Greek word.....of course it won't appear in the OT Hebrew books.
4. If Paul did practice Israel's baptism to reach the Jews, how could he preach the gospel of the grace of God at the same time? The gospel of the kingdom required water baptism. There is no way Paul would have practiced a baptism that was essential to receiving remission of sins. I realize that Paul received an abundance of revelations through a gradual process but how could he have received the gospel of the grace of God gradually? It is either salvation by grace or it isn't (Rom. 11:6).
4. If Paul did practice Israel's baptism to reach the Jews, how could he preach the gospel of the grace of God at the same time? The gospel of the kingdom required water baptism. There is no way Paul would have practiced a baptism that was essential to receiving remission of sins. I realize that Paul received an abundance of revelations through a gradual process but how could he have received the gospel of the grace of God gradually? It is either salvation by grace or it isn't (Rom. 11:6).
HOSS: He practiced circumcision without teaching the law (Rom. 6:14, Acts 16:3). He practiced signs and wonders without preaching the kingdom gospel (1 Cor. 14, Acts 19:6). So why I couldn't he baptize as a symbol of
the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean
conscience????.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26,
Numbers 8:6-7.
5. If it was not kingdom baptism that Paul practiced, where did he get his baptism from? Although he was not sent baptize, he must have received it from the Lord. Else, why would he do it? That he was not sent to baptize does not necessarily mean that he stopped or that we shouldn't baptize today. What was Paul sent to do (Acts 26:16-18)? There is much that he rightly did in his ministry that was not contained in that commission. Water baptism is not required under the gospel of grace. He was sent to preach the gospel (1 Cor.1:17) therefore he was not sent to baptize simply because water baptism is not required under the gospel of grace. He was not sent to observe the Lord's supper either but he observed it because he received it from the Lord. Isn't the Lord's supper CONNECTED with the last supper (though distinct)? Paul referred to the last supper when he taught about the Lord's supper. So, why couldn't God take water baptism and bring it over into the new dispensation allowing it to take on a new meaning in light of the new message He revealed through Paul (1 Cor. 11:1-2)? For Israel, remission of sins will come at the second coming of Christ. For us, we have now received the atonement. Water baptism for Israel looked forward to the second coming and establishment of their kingdom. Water baptism for the church looks back to death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Immersion in water is a good symbol of both. We must be careful not to focus so much on the divisions of scripture that we fail to see the connections. In the OT the Passover lamb was symbolic for Israel. God took that symbol and applied it to the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 5:7). Jesus spoke to the Jewish apostles about the New Testament in His blood. Paul said he was a minister of the New Testament. I don't believe that a testament and covenant is exactly the same. For example, its possible to have a covenant without death and blood but not so with a testament (Heb. 9:16). I know that the body of Christ is not under the new covenant but we are saved by the blood of the New Testament.
5. If it was not kingdom baptism that Paul practiced, where did he get his baptism from? Although he was not sent baptize, he must have received it from the Lord. Else, why would he do it? That he was not sent to baptize does not necessarily mean that he stopped or that we shouldn't baptize today. What was Paul sent to do (Acts 26:16-18)? There is much that he rightly did in his ministry that was not contained in that commission. Water baptism is not required under the gospel of grace. He was sent to preach the gospel (1 Cor.1:17) therefore he was not sent to baptize simply because water baptism is not required under the gospel of grace. He was not sent to observe the Lord's supper either but he observed it because he received it from the Lord. Isn't the Lord's supper CONNECTED with the last supper (though distinct)? Paul referred to the last supper when he taught about the Lord's supper. So, why couldn't God take water baptism and bring it over into the new dispensation allowing it to take on a new meaning in light of the new message He revealed through Paul (1 Cor. 11:1-2)? For Israel, remission of sins will come at the second coming of Christ. For us, we have now received the atonement. Water baptism for Israel looked forward to the second coming and establishment of their kingdom. Water baptism for the church looks back to death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Immersion in water is a good symbol of both. We must be careful not to focus so much on the divisions of scripture that we fail to see the connections. In the OT the Passover lamb was symbolic for Israel. God took that symbol and applied it to the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 5:7). Jesus spoke to the Jewish apostles about the New Testament in His blood. Paul said he was a minister of the New Testament. I don't believe that a testament and covenant is exactly the same. For example, its possible to have a covenant without death and blood but not so with a testament (Heb. 9:16). I know that the body of Christ is not under the new covenant but we are saved by the blood of the New Testament.
HOSS: So Christ didn't send Paul to baptize but He told him to baptize? That's impossible. (then you launched your wild assumptions from there)
6. I used to think that John's baptism was probably either by pouring or sprinkling. However, after further study, I believe that it could very well have been immersion. The Bible says that John baptized Jews IN Jordan (Matt. 3:6) and he baptized at a place where there was MUCH WATER (Jn. 3:23). Pouring and sprinkling does not require the person being baptized to be in much water but immersion does. When Jesus was baptized He came up straightway out of the water. When Philip baptized the Eunuch they both went down into the water. Again, if it was only sprinkling or pouring, why go all the way into the water? Why not just stand near the water? Being immersed in water symbolized a thorough washing for Israel. It symbolizes death, burial, and resurrection for the church. So, perhaps the mode of water baptism didn't change but the purpose did in accordance to what God revealed to Paul.
HOSS: See this great post by Pastor David O'Steen http://kjbstudy.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-mode-of-johns-baptism.html
7. There are actually more references in Acts to Paul baptizing with water than Peter. By the way, the expression "baptized with water" could apply to immersion. That he baptized some of John's disciples that had already been baptized proves that his baptism was distinct (Acts 19:4-5). I realize some say that the "they" in v.5 is "the people" in v.4. However, the normal unbiased reading would indicate that the "they" in v.5 is the "they" of v.3 and the "them" of v.6. If Luke is referring to those that heard John in v.5, It would be rather redundant to say, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people... When they heard this, they were baptized". Also, where is the record that John baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus? It seems to me that after bringing these disciples "up to speed" that Paul would have preached his gospel to them. Its not recorded in the text because that is not the purpose of the context. Acts is more about the fall of Israel than the revelation of Paul's distinct message and ministry. For example, I am sure that Paul preached his gospel on the island of Melita (Acts 28) but it is not recorded.
HOSS: There are three references to Paul baptizing in Acts. He baptized that purple seller, the jailor, and the Corinthians (Acts 16 and 18). Peter baptized in Acts 2 and 10. But there are also the other kingdom apostles that baptized, like John and Philip (John 1, Matt 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, Acts 8).
Also, Paul did not re-baptize in Acts 19. Why would he?
Acts 19:
[1] And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
[2] He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[3] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[2] He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[3] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
I place the quote marks like this..... Then said Paul, "John verily baptized with the
baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe
on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus".
You place them like this......Then said Paul, "John verily baptized with the
baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe
on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus". When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
8. Where then, are we told to baptize? Many were baptized at Corinth and Paul only baptized a few of them, so he must have instructed his fellowlabourers to baptize. Paul told Timothy to keep the things he heard of him and to commit them to faithful men also (2 Tim. 1:13; 2:2). Well, Timothy was with Paul at Corinth and evidently helped him baptize many of the believers there (Acts 18:5-8). Paul didn't say, "keep what you heard from me EXCEPT water baptism which has now ceased with my prison ministry." Perhaps it was because water baptism was such an established practice that there was no need for Paul to give instruction on it in his epistles. He was writing to water baptized believers. On what basis should we baptize today? We are commanded to follow Paul and when he made that statement twice in in 1 Corinthians, it was during the book Acts period at a time when he was baptizing converts. I know, I know, he also circumcised Timothy and worked signs, etc... but he later taught that signs would cease and to let no man judge you in regard to circumcision but he never said anything about water baptism no longer being practiced. I think we could practice water baptism on the basis of Phil. 4:9. We see Paul baptizing in the Bible and he never said not to do it.
HOSS: We were never told to baptize because Paul wasn't told to baptize (1 Cor. 1:17). Now there is only ONE baptism in our walk, calling, and unity. (Eph. 4:5)
9. That there is one baptism that one Spirit uses to put believers in one body does not mean that there is only one kind of valid baptism today. There is a baptism of suffering that many believers experience in this age (1 Cor. 15:29). Water baptism as a symbolic identification would not contradict Eph. 4:5.
HOSS:
1 Corinthians 12:
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 4:
[1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
[2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
[3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
[3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Colossians 2:
[6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[18] Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
[19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
[20] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
[21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
[22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
[23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[18] Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
[19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
[20] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
[21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
[22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
[23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
1 Corinthians 1:
[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
10. I know that Acts is a transitional book and there are things that Paul did during Acts that we are not to follow on this side of the transition. He told us about that in his epistles. He never said a word about water baptism being an exclusively Jewish/kingdom practice that ceased along with sabbath keeping and circumcision.
HOSS: See previous 9 answers.
12. Is water baptism an ordinance? Why did the Gentile jailor get baptized? Paul must have told him to. That would make it an ordinance. The ordinance of the Lord's supper symbolizes the death of Christ. The ordinance of water baptism symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection if Christ. Those aren't ordinances that were written by hand in the OT and were against us. There are other ordinances that Paul gave the church, but there are only two memorial ordinances.
HOSS: Christ didn't tell Paul to baptize and those that He dead command to baptize were apostles. Your arguments are based on a whole lot of assumption and no real scripture.
13. Does the fact that Paul was not inspired to write about the mode, purpose, etc... of water baptism prove that water baptism doesn't matter today? We know that water baptism mattered under the gospel of the kingdom (Mk. 1:4; Acts 2:38; Mk.16:16). Yet, where in the general epistles do we find the apostles of the circumcision teaching on water baptism? Hebrews mentions "baptisms". Peter mentioned it once. The "church of Christ" love to quote 1 Pet. 3:21 out of context and without its parenthetical statement. The Bible does not teach that water baptism has ever, or will ever, save anyone in and of itself. Under the gospel of the kingdom those that truly repented were baptized as evidence of their faith (God commanded it, faith obeys God's word). The main issue has always been faith. To say that water baptism doesn't matter in this age on the basis of Paul's lack of teaching on it would also mean, by the same argument, that water baptism isn't important under the gospel of the kingdom either. If Paul didn't instruct new believers to be baptized, why were they baptized under his authority and ministry?
HOSS: "Does the fact that Paul was not inspired to write
about the mode, purpose, etc... of water baptism prove that water
baptism doesn't matter today?" Yes. I do not perform vain traditions without scripture to back them up.
14. The issue of Gentile behavior to reach the Jew is specifically dealt with in Acts
15. Wouldn't this have been the perfect setting for the Jewish apostles to give a statement as to the importance of water baptism to the Jews? They talk about idolatry, fornication, things strangled, blood, but not a word about water baptism.
HOSS: I agree, but that does not prove your position.
15. Paul said that tongues cease, meat restrictions are lifted, circumcision becomes but dung, etc... According to some the greater issue is water baptism. Why then, are the lesser things dealt with and the greater left entirely alone?
15. Paul said that tongues cease, meat restrictions are lifted, circumcision becomes but dung, etc... According to some the greater issue is water baptism. Why then, are the lesser things dealt with and the greater left entirely alone?
HOSS: ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism (Eph. 4:5). Also see Colossians 2.
16. How a person is placed in the body of Christ is only given in an Acts epistle (1 Cor. 12:13). Does this mean Paul no longer believed it or that it passed away with the Acts period?
16. How a person is placed in the body of Christ is only given in an Acts epistle (1 Cor. 12:13). Does this mean Paul no longer believed it or that it passed away with the Acts period?
HOSS: What?
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
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