Sunday, July 20, 2014

Hoss vs Herb....again! (Part 3)

 Herb Evans vs Hoss Cartwright debate.
EVANS: That is like saying that someone is haf pregnant.
HOSS: No it isn't. I was just saying that if a doctrine is only talked about by Paul and Paul says it was a mystery than Paul was probably the first one to understand it. Especially if what other writers say contradicts what Paul says. 

EVANS: My question is not answered.
HOSS: No, water baptism and local churches are not spiritual. There are thousands of local church attending water buptized lost people. But only saved people have been baptized by the Spirit into Christ and are part of the body of Christ. 

Evans: No, they are not the same. The FLOCK is a metaphor for the church just like the term body. Do you deny a local FLOCK in the gospels. Are the terms temple and building symbolism? So you deny that the local church was puchased withj His blood? Is this an invisible universal flock? Was it in heaven and earth.
HOSS: The Spirit does not baptize people into metaphors and we are not members of a metaphor. See the 4 points I sent you. 
No, "the" local church was not purchased with Christ's blood. There is no such thing as "the" local church. People were purchased with Christ's blood. Saved people can together be a local church and in that sense that particular local church could rightfully be said to be "purchased with His own blood". But "the" local church doesn't exist. 

EVANS: Still false. There never was a church prior to the tabernacle and/or temple.
HOSS: The KJB defines a church as a congregation (Heb. 2:12 with Ps. 22:22-28) . Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

EVANS: Still FALSE. Serious!
HOSS: Nope.

EVANS: Why not really?
HOSS: Where did it say that somebody could hear about the dispensation given through Paul before Paul got it? Nowhere. 

EVANS: Does that mean that hoone else was dispensed this disapensation and it does not say when or where else it was dispensed. That is your interpolation.
HOSS: The dispensation was given to Paul to usward. Does that answer your question? 

EVANS: I have to admit that John  taught this sacrifice to everyone present and that He also taught about the Holy Spirit.
HOSS: Agreed. So did Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

EVANS: Thait is fine, but this has nothing to do with your mystical body revelation.
HOSS: Then let's start debating local vs mystical church.

EVANS: Despite the wordy double talk and bull, you see Christ and the church relationship one way and the husband and wife another way as well as the fornicator and harlot relationship another way also. Then you do not show what you claim in Acts 8. You don't understand because you do not see the similatity between your reference to EDphesisns 5 and Genesis 2, 29, and 2 Sam 19:13 which I posted you.
HOSS: All I said was that we are joined to Christ and that Christ gave Himself for us and we are joined together as one body. That is the same relationship as a husband and wife.

 EVANS: I could not access this link and neither do I want to; can't you answer in your own words.
HOSS: That is my own words, but it is too long to post in this debate.

EVANS: Plainly, your reply does not establish your claim, and I asked a plain yes or no question.
HOSS: The answer about Ethiopia and all that is no. 

EVANS: Despite your verse manipulation, it does not say that in Eph 5:30 in the mystery of the church and Christ, the verse under question, which we are discussing clearly states part of the mystery of which there is more than one part.
HOSS: I don't understand what you are saying, "clearly states part of the mystery of which there is more than one part" I agree that there is more than one part to the mystery.

EVANS: This is not a contradiction of the mystery but further info of what Paul wrote before in a few words about the mystery of the Gentiles being included in the SAME BODY which means that the Jews were already in that body, whatever it is.  Still you did not post the contents of your reference of Eph 3:6 like you was supposed to, so I guess I had to do it. I don't like that waste of time.
HOSS: No it does not mean that the Jews were in that body. Just because the Gentiles are fellowheirs and of the same body together does not tell us where the Jews are. Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel
That verse doesn't tell us where the Jews are at. The body is for non-Jews. The unique thing about the body of Christ is that it offers equal standing to heathen Gentiles as it does the Jews. The Jews had their covenants and all that and the Gentiles didn't have anything that wasn't through Israel's kingdom and blessing UNTIL revealed through Paul.  

EVANS: Thanks!
HOSS: Your welcome.

EVANS: And it was the same body that the Jews were already in. Listen if you can't post the contents of your address, I will have to quit. I don't care to have to stop an look up you references; it is a wate of my time. Moreover your reference to Ephesians 2 says BY THE CROSS, something that happened before Paul's conversion in Acts 9.
HOSS: You have no verse that says that the Jews were in a body and then it opened up to Gentiles or that the Jews were even in a body. Also, just because the body of Christ was made possible BY the cross does not mean that it was made AT the cross. 

EVANS: Your pattern is not Paul's pattern. You beyyer get the right pattern rather than intrpolate.
HOSS: Ok. 

EVANS: So, now you are back to verse jumping instead of taking 1 Timothy at face value. The pattern is longsuffering.
HOSS: So what was the longsuffering? Didn't you know that there was longsuffering before Paul?  

EVANS: No, don't change the KJB and quote what it really says above.
HOSS: I didn't. 

EVANS: So Christ is not the foundation or even the FOUNDER; Paul is the founder?  
HOSS: That's not at all what I said. All I said was that according to the grace given to Paul that he, as a wise master builder, laid the foundation and it was others that built on that foundation. (1 Cor. 3:10) Then I supported that with Paul being the pattern in 1 Timothy 1. 
  I Timothy 1:[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 1 Corinthians 3: [10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon

EVANS: Yes, you keep repeating an empty claim without substantiation.
HOSS: Hmm, I was going to say the same about you. 

EVANS: Actually, the whole hyper dspensational and MAD theory is ASSUMPTION. Have you ever broken that word ASSUME down and what it makes out of U an me?
HOSS: "Have you ever broken that word ASSUME down and what it makes out of U an me?" Now that is the funniest thing I have read all week. Did you make that up?  

EVANS: No, you only amended them and manipulated them to say what you wanted them to say. Have you ever heard about King James Onlies correcting the KJB?
HOSS: Waite and Cloud? 

EVANS: I don't have to prove that, for I do not believe that it is Christendom or a denomination as you frame it.
HOSS: You do have to prove it, 1 Thessalonians 5:18 "Prove all things..."

EVANS: Thank you.
HOSS: Your welcome.

EVANS: Of course, you think that you have, but where do I find that proof?

EVANS: WELL, I 'll you what. Take a concordance and look at the hundred plus occurences of the word "church." Weed out the plural forms, for the invisible church cannot be plural. Then weed out the WHOLE church references that cannot be the invisible church. Then look up the churches that are at specific locations, jerusalem, etc.,  for they cannot be in heaven. Then see what you have left and tell me which ones are the universal church aqnd why, and I will comment on your evaluation.
HOSS: Why would I do that? I proved that the body of Christ is universal/mystical/spiritual/etc and that body is a church. A called out assembly in Christ. The Bible even calls the body a church.

EVANS: You are picking and choosing again. Answer the whole question but not with a question.
HOSS: Ok. NO, nothing can exist without being started.

EVANS: I just wanted to hear it again
HOSS: Well ain't dat nice.

Hoss, answer this tomorrow and I will post part Two

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