"1.) Most Baptist people say that the kingdom apostles and believers did not care if Paul baptized or not since it was not on the list of "necessary things" in Acts 15. But Paul did a LOT more than what was mentioned in Acts 15 by James (Acts 16:1-3, 18:18, 24:18, etc.) Paul circumcised, observed feast days, had vows, purified himself, etc. when those were not on the list of offenses to the Jews. Acts 15 is not the only thing we should look at when deciding why Paul did certain practices that are not for the "church age".
2.) The believers of the gospel of the kingdom wanted Paul to get baptized, (Aninias--Acts 22:16). Peter did not think that anyone could forbid water baptism, even if the convert was already saved and had the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:47-48). It is not ridiculous to say that Paul kept the practice for the sake of those like Aninias. This is certainly no more "assumption" than the arguments that people use to KEEP water baptism as an ordinance.
3.) Paul had the authority to baptize since he was an apostle and Christ had told him not to be a stumbling block to anyone. However, Paul plainly states that Christ never sent him to baptize anybody, but rather to preach the gospel (1 Cor. 1:17). We have no scripture whatsoever that tells us to get baptized or to baptize anyone. We, like Paul, are sent to be ambassadors for Christ and not to baptize (2 Cor. 5).
4.) Ceremonially washing your body as a symbol of purification (1 Pet. 3:21, Heb. 10:22, Acts 22:16) is a law ordinance that Christ abolished and nailed to His cross with the other religious rituals (Col. 2:10-23). The point of Colossians 2:6-23 is that we received Christ by faith alone without works and were made complete in Him by spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism---the point is that we should not want anything else and rather seek those things which are above.
5.) Of course some people say, "Well I CAN get baptized, Paul did do it after all. We would be a stumbling block to the Baptist churches around us if we did not practice it". I am all for trying to reach people and we should do what we can to further the gospel, but the "stumbling block" issue is TODAY is not what it was in the book of Acts. After Acts Paul plainly says "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Col. 2:8) and also "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Col. 2:14-17). When there was a LOST elect remnant in Acts that needed to be saved, Paul practiced Jewish ordinances. After Acts, Paul comes out openly and says that it is dung and to beware of it. Trying to reach LOST Jews is different than trying to please hyper-sensitive BAPTISTS that can't handle right division. We have liberty in Christ....Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. However, if we are practicing water baptism just so that our Baptist fellows won't think we are hereticks, hypers, and weirdos and are just trying to fit into the religious crowd is using our liberty for an occasion to the flesh. Christ was never afraid to break the traditions of the Pharisees when it was something that was not part of the Law, we should follow that example."
Here is my friend's reply.
"Were the 5,000 baptized in Acts 4:4? We know they were but it doesn't say they were. Likewise, just because water baptism is not recorded in Paul's first journey doesn't mean that he didn't practice it.
He said he only baptized a few at Corinth, not that he only baptized a few in his entire ministry. Many were baptized at Corinth (Acts 18:8). If he only baptized a few, his co-laborers must have baptized the rest.
Water baptism as an identification with Christ was never an ordinance of the Law. It was first revealed to John and was never intended to be for the Jews only (Matt. 28:19). In the NT disciples of Christ are baptized. It's just that simple. Under the gospel of the kingdom it was required. Under the gospel of grace it is not required but that does not mean that it is now banned. The local church and Lord's supper carried over into this age with some alterations according to new revelation. Why not baptism?
What scripture teaches that after the Acts period it is now okay to be a stumblingblock? Paul condemned trying to be justified/sanctified by the works of the law in Phil. 3 and Col. 2. Where did he say water baptism was now dung?
Was Paul's baptism just the idea of Ananias? Christ told Paul that when he got to Damascus he would be told of all things it was "appointed" for him to do (Acts 22:10). Christ sent Ananias to Paul. Evidently it was appointed for Paul, our pattern, to be baptized AFTER his conversion as a SYMBOL and IDENTIFICATION with Christ. "
My friend said "Were the 5,000 baptized in Acts 4:4? We know they were but it doesn't say they were. Likewise, just because water baptism is not recorded in Paul's first journey doesn't mean that he didn't practice it." That is a point based on ASSUMPTION and not Bible. What my friends is trying to do is having the apostle Paul practicing water baptism BEFORE the meeting in Acts 15. This way he can say that Paul did not start baptizing as a result of the meeting in Jerusalem. http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/hoss-vs-buptist-part-6.html
The point is, the Bible nowhere suggests that Paul baptized before Acts 15 and we have absolutely no reason to believe that he did. Christ didn't tell Paul to baptize (1 Cor. 1:17), we do not read about Paul baptizing before Acts 15, but we know that the followers of the 12 apostles (gospel of the circumcision/gospel of the kingdom) wanted Paul to get baptized (Acts 22:16) and that is why Paul started baptizing. Christ told him not to be a stumbling block to the Jews and the kingdom gospel believers wanted Paul involved in water baptism.
I am not going to base my position on water baptism on ASSUMPTION--or at least not "Paul must have baptized before Acts 15 because it doesn't say that Peter baptized in Acts 4". Christ gave made Paul the preacher, teacher, and apostle of the Gentiles and He gave him dispensation of the mystery and the gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal. 1:11-12, 2:7-8, Rom. 11:13, 11:25, 16:25, 1 Cor. 4:1, 4:1, 15:1-4, 2 Tim. 1:11, etc.). Christ made Paul the pattern fore those who would believe Paul's gospel after him (1 Tim. 1:11-16). We must consider Paul's teaching and follow him if we want to understand the Bible (2 Tim. 2:7, 2:15, 1 Cor. 4:1, 4:16, 11:1, Phil. 3:17). ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16), but it is not all OUR doctrine. We must "rightly divide the word of truth". We must divide testaments, covenants, dispensations, and revelations. The New Testament did not begin until the death of Christ, the gospel that does not involve Israel, getting in the body of Christ without works (selling all possessions, getting baptized, etc.), and the rapture of the body of Christ was all a MYSTERY that was first revealed to Paul. Paul's epistles reveal Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. The rest of the Bible shows Christ as a "minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Rom. 15:8). However, Paul was made "the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable" (Rom. 15:16).
We are grace dispensation believers looking for the rapture of the body of Christ. Paul's epistles are doctrinally written TO us, FOR us, and ABOUT us. We must look to Romans through Philemon to find what our doctrine is specifically for this dispensation. So if we need water baptism then we must look at what Paul says about about water baptism.
"He said he only baptized a few at Corinth, not that he only baptized a few in his entire ministry. Many were baptized at Corinth (Acts 18:8). If he only baptized a few, his co-laborers must have baptized the rest. "
That is wrong, Paul never said that he only baptized "a few".
This is what the Bible says...
"And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue. And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." (Acts 18:7-8)
MANY of the Corinthians were baptized.....
"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (1 Corinthians 1:13-17)
Paul only remembers baptizing Crispus, Gaius, the household of Stephanas, and besides that he did not know if he baptized any others.
Paul did not say that he only baptized a few, he only said that he could not remember who all he baptized. My friend is making more assumption (Paul's co-workers baptizing) to try and make his baptist beliefs fit into the Bible.
"Water baptism as an identification with Christ was never an ordinance of the Law. It was first revealed to John and was never intended to be for the Jews only (Matt. 28:19). "
There is no such animal as "water baptism as an identification with Christ". That is nowhere in the Bible. That idea originated from Baptists that mistook Galatians 3:27 and Romans 6:3-4 as WATER baptism when it was SPIRIT baptism, an operation of God (1 Cor. 6:11, 12:12-13, Col. 2:10-14). We receive the Spirit of Christ which puts us into His body. That is not an identification, that is a REAL joining together of the believer with Christ (1 Cor. 6:17, Eph. 4:16, 5:30, Col. 2:19). That is more than "identification" brother!
Water baptism, by definition, is the washing of the body as a symbol of purification. That is all it is.
Hebrews 10:
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
As you can see, water baptism saved in a "life figure" (not real salvation--figurative) but it did not literally save or wash away your sins ("not the putting away of the filth of the flesh"). It was the answer of a good conscience toward God, and you cannot answer God with a good conscience if you are lost (Titus 1:15).
The washing in water was a symbol of purification in general, it did not even picture the blood of Christ. I know that because John the Baptist and the 12 apostles water baptized BEFORE they knew anything about the sacrificial blood of Christ, yet they water baptized.
Mark 9:31-32 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
Matthew 16:21-22 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Luke 18:31-34 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Water baptism did NOT symbolize Christ's blood or death, burial, and resurrection. If it did, how come nobody knew about it?
Water baptism identified Israel with Christ through REPENTANCE and the answer of a good CONSCIENCE.
Matthew 3:
[1] In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
[7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John 1:
[31] And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
[32] And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
[33] And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Water baptism identified people with "repentance" and a "good conscience". John made Christ manifest to Israel through water baptism and he was "sent" to baptize.
How did water baptism make Christ manifest to Israel? Well the Jews were expecting Christ Himself to baptize, in John 1:25 the priests and Levites asked John "Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ". We know that Christ did NOT baptize Himself (John 4:2), but why were the Jews expecting Christ to baptize? Because the prophecies of Christ's 2nd coming mentioned Him sprinkling people to cleanse them.
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Therefore water baptism was more than likely by sprinkling as a symbol of purification. John's baptism did cause questions to be brought up about purifying.
John 3:
[22] After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
[23] And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
[24] For John was not yet cast into prison.
[25] Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
[26] And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
[27] John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
[28] Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
The question about "purifying" is about the one who "baptizeth". These Jews were expecting Christ to baptize and they knew it was a symbol of repentance and a good conscience. Baptism did not identify with Christ's blood or His death, burial, and resurrection because nobody knew about it. The reason water baptism manifested Christ to Israel is because Christ is the one who commanded it and sent John and the apostles to do it. It identified BELIEVING Israel with repentance and unbelieving Israel with disobedience (Luke 7:29-30).
Was water baptism part of the law? Well "baptism" is a Greek word, not a Hebrew word. It will not be found in Genesis through Malachi. However, we do find the washing of the body as a symbol of purification (which is what water baptism is).
Numbers 8:
[5] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[6] Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
[7] And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.
Leviticus 8:
[4] And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; and the assembly was gathered together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
[5] And Moses said unto the congregation, This is the thing which the LORD commanded to be done.
[6] And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.
Numbers 19:
[16] And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.
[17] And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:
[18] And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
[19] And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.
[20] But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.
[21] And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.
[22] And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.
Washing in water as a symbol of purification was a Law ordinance. This is closely related to John's ministry.
1.) It was washing in water as a symbolic purification.
2.) John baptized believers, and it was AFTER they had passed from death unto life (John 5:24). Under the law, those who came in contact with "one dead" had to wash themselves in water.
3.) In the Law, the priests had to be washed in water for purification. Those who believed the gospel of the kingdom were a holy and royal priesthood (1 Pet. 2:5, 9) and needed to be baptized. Israel will be a nation of priests in Christ's kingdom (Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6).
So washing the body for purification IS part of the law.
Let's continue looking at what my friend wrote.
"In the NT disciples of Christ are baptized. It's just that simple. Under the gospel of the kingdom it was required. Under the gospel of grace it is not required but that does not mean that it is now banned. The local church and Lord's supper carried over into this age with some alterations according to new revelation. Why not baptism?"
My friend said "Were the 5,000 baptized in Acts 4:4? We know they were but it doesn't say they were. Likewise, just because water baptism is not recorded in Paul's first journey doesn't mean that he didn't practice it." That is a point based on ASSUMPTION and not Bible. What my friends is trying to do is having the apostle Paul practicing water baptism BEFORE the meeting in Acts 15. This way he can say that Paul did not start baptizing as a result of the meeting in Jerusalem. http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/hoss-vs-buptist-part-6.html
The point is, the Bible nowhere suggests that Paul baptized before Acts 15 and we have absolutely no reason to believe that he did. Christ didn't tell Paul to baptize (1 Cor. 1:17), we do not read about Paul baptizing before Acts 15, but we know that the followers of the 12 apostles (gospel of the circumcision/gospel of the kingdom) wanted Paul to get baptized (Acts 22:16) and that is why Paul started baptizing. Christ told him not to be a stumbling block to the Jews and the kingdom gospel believers wanted Paul involved in water baptism.
I am not going to base my position on water baptism on ASSUMPTION--or at least not "Paul must have baptized before Acts 15 because it doesn't say that Peter baptized in Acts 4". Christ gave made Paul the preacher, teacher, and apostle of the Gentiles and He gave him dispensation of the mystery and the gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal. 1:11-12, 2:7-8, Rom. 11:13, 11:25, 16:25, 1 Cor. 4:1, 4:1, 15:1-4, 2 Tim. 1:11, etc.). Christ made Paul the pattern fore those who would believe Paul's gospel after him (1 Tim. 1:11-16). We must consider Paul's teaching and follow him if we want to understand the Bible (2 Tim. 2:7, 2:15, 1 Cor. 4:1, 4:16, 11:1, Phil. 3:17). ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16), but it is not all OUR doctrine. We must "rightly divide the word of truth". We must divide testaments, covenants, dispensations, and revelations. The New Testament did not begin until the death of Christ, the gospel that does not involve Israel, getting in the body of Christ without works (selling all possessions, getting baptized, etc.), and the rapture of the body of Christ was all a MYSTERY that was first revealed to Paul. Paul's epistles reveal Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. The rest of the Bible shows Christ as a "minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Rom. 15:8). However, Paul was made "the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable" (Rom. 15:16).
We are grace dispensation believers looking for the rapture of the body of Christ. Paul's epistles are doctrinally written TO us, FOR us, and ABOUT us. We must look to Romans through Philemon to find what our doctrine is specifically for this dispensation. So if we need water baptism then we must look at what Paul says about about water baptism.
"He said he only baptized a few at Corinth, not that he only baptized a few in his entire ministry. Many were baptized at Corinth (Acts 18:8). If he only baptized a few, his co-laborers must have baptized the rest. "
That is wrong, Paul never said that he only baptized "a few".
This is what the Bible says...
"And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue. And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." (Acts 18:7-8)
MANY of the Corinthians were baptized.....
"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (1 Corinthians 1:13-17)
Paul only remembers baptizing Crispus, Gaius, the household of Stephanas, and besides that he did not know if he baptized any others.
Paul did not say that he only baptized a few, he only said that he could not remember who all he baptized. My friend is making more assumption (Paul's co-workers baptizing) to try and make his baptist beliefs fit into the Bible.
"Water baptism as an identification with Christ was never an ordinance of the Law. It was first revealed to John and was never intended to be for the Jews only (Matt. 28:19). "
There is no such animal as "water baptism as an identification with Christ". That is nowhere in the Bible. That idea originated from Baptists that mistook Galatians 3:27 and Romans 6:3-4 as WATER baptism when it was SPIRIT baptism, an operation of God (1 Cor. 6:11, 12:12-13, Col. 2:10-14). We receive the Spirit of Christ which puts us into His body. That is not an identification, that is a REAL joining together of the believer with Christ (1 Cor. 6:17, Eph. 4:16, 5:30, Col. 2:19). That is more than "identification" brother!
Water baptism, by definition, is the washing of the body as a symbol of purification. That is all it is.
Hebrews 10:
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
As you can see, water baptism saved in a "life figure" (not real salvation--figurative) but it did not literally save or wash away your sins ("not the putting away of the filth of the flesh"). It was the answer of a good conscience toward God, and you cannot answer God with a good conscience if you are lost (Titus 1:15).
The washing in water was a symbol of purification in general, it did not even picture the blood of Christ. I know that because John the Baptist and the 12 apostles water baptized BEFORE they knew anything about the sacrificial blood of Christ, yet they water baptized.
Mark 9:31-32 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
Matthew 16:21-22 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Luke 18:31-34 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Water baptism did NOT symbolize Christ's blood or death, burial, and resurrection. If it did, how come nobody knew about it?
Water baptism identified Israel with Christ through REPENTANCE and the answer of a good CONSCIENCE.
Matthew 3:
[1] In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
[7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John 1:
[31] And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
[32] And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
[33] And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Water baptism identified people with "repentance" and a "good conscience". John made Christ manifest to Israel through water baptism and he was "sent" to baptize.
How did water baptism make Christ manifest to Israel? Well the Jews were expecting Christ Himself to baptize, in John 1:25 the priests and Levites asked John "Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ". We know that Christ did NOT baptize Himself (John 4:2), but why were the Jews expecting Christ to baptize? Because the prophecies of Christ's 2nd coming mentioned Him sprinkling people to cleanse them.
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Therefore water baptism was more than likely by sprinkling as a symbol of purification. John's baptism did cause questions to be brought up about purifying.
John 3:
[22] After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
[23] And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
[24] For John was not yet cast into prison.
[25] Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
[26] And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
[27] John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
[28] Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
The question about "purifying" is about the one who "baptizeth". These Jews were expecting Christ to baptize and they knew it was a symbol of repentance and a good conscience. Baptism did not identify with Christ's blood or His death, burial, and resurrection because nobody knew about it. The reason water baptism manifested Christ to Israel is because Christ is the one who commanded it and sent John and the apostles to do it. It identified BELIEVING Israel with repentance and unbelieving Israel with disobedience (Luke 7:29-30).
Was water baptism part of the law? Well "baptism" is a Greek word, not a Hebrew word. It will not be found in Genesis through Malachi. However, we do find the washing of the body as a symbol of purification (which is what water baptism is).
Numbers 8:
[5] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[6] Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
[7] And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.
Leviticus 8:
[4] And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; and the assembly was gathered together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
[5] And Moses said unto the congregation, This is the thing which the LORD commanded to be done.
[6] And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.
Numbers 19:
[16] And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.
[17] And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:
[18] And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
[19] And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.
[20] But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.
[21] And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.
[22] And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.
Washing in water as a symbol of purification was a Law ordinance. This is closely related to John's ministry.
1.) It was washing in water as a symbolic purification.
2.) John baptized believers, and it was AFTER they had passed from death unto life (John 5:24). Under the law, those who came in contact with "one dead" had to wash themselves in water.
3.) In the Law, the priests had to be washed in water for purification. Those who believed the gospel of the kingdom were a holy and royal priesthood (1 Pet. 2:5, 9) and needed to be baptized. Israel will be a nation of priests in Christ's kingdom (Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6).
So washing the body for purification IS part of the law.
Let's continue looking at what my friend wrote.
"In the NT disciples of Christ are baptized. It's just that simple. Under the gospel of the kingdom it was required. Under the gospel of grace it is not required but that does not mean that it is now banned. The local church and Lord's supper carried over into this age with some alterations according to new revelation. Why not baptism?"
Actually, Paul was not told to baptize and neither are we (1 Cor. 1:17). Paul revealed that we have "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5) and that we are complete in Christ and should not desire religious rituals (Col 2:6-23). It's just that simple. There are two things in the Bible: stories and statements. Stories record what people actually DID while statements tell us what we need to do. What people do and God commands in His word is very different. Here are my five points again.
1.) Most
Baptist people say that the kingdom apostles and believers did not care
if Paul baptized or not since it was not on the list of "necessary
things" in Acts 15. But Paul did a LOT more than what was mentioned in
Acts 15 by James (Acts 16:1-3, 18:18, 24:18, etc.) Paul circumcised,
observed feast days, had vows, purified himself, etc. when those were
not on the list of offenses to the Jews. Acts 15 is not the only thing
we should look at when deciding why Paul did certain practices that are
not for the "church age".
2.) The
believers of the gospel of the kingdom wanted Paul to get baptized,
(Aninias--Acts 22:16). Peter did not think that anyone could forbid
water baptism, even if the convert was already saved and had the Holy
Ghost (Acts 10:47-48). It is not ridiculous to say that Paul kept the
practice for the sake of those like Aninias. This is certainly no more "assumption" than the arguments that people use to KEEP water baptism as an ordinance.
3.) Paul
had the authority to baptize since he was an apostle and Christ had
told him not to be a stumbling block to anyone. However, Paul plainly
states that Christ never sent him to baptize anybody, but rather to
preach the gospel (1 Cor. 1:17). We have no scripture whatsoever that
tells us to get baptized or to baptize anyone. We, like Paul, are sent
to be ambassadors for Christ and not to baptize (2 Cor. 5).
4.) Ceremonially
washing your body as a symbol of purification (1 Pet. 3:21, Heb. 10:22,
Acts 22:16) is a law ordinance that Christ abolished and nailed to His
cross with the other religious rituals (Col. 2:10-23). The point of
Colossians 2:6-23 is that we received Christ by faith alone without
works and were made complete in Him by spiritual circumcision and
spiritual baptism---the point is that we should not want anything else
and rather seek those things which are above.
5.) Of
course some people say, "Well I CAN get baptized, Paul did do it after
all. We would be a stumbling block to the Baptist churches around us if
we did not practice it". I am all for trying to reach people and we
should do what we can to further the gospel, but the "stumbling block"
issue is TODAY is not what it was in the book of Acts. After Acts Paul
plainly says "Beware lest any man spoil you
through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after
the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Col. 2:8) and also "Blotting
out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was
contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And
having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them
openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in
meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or
of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body
is of Christ." (Col. 2:14-17). When there was a LOST elect
remnant in Acts that needed to be saved, Paul practiced Jewish
ordinances. After Acts, Paul comes out openly and says that it is dung
and to beware of it. Trying to reach LOST Jews is different than trying
to please hyper-sensitive BAPTISTS that can't handle right division. We
have liberty in Christ....Galatians 5:13 For,
brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an
occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. However,
if we are practicing water baptism just so that our Baptist fellows
won't think we are hereticks, hypers, and weirdos and are just trying to
fit into the religious crowd is using our liberty for an occasion to
the flesh. Christ was never afraid to break the traditions of the
Pharisees when it was something that was not part of the Law, we should
follow that example.
My friend said "Under the gospel of the kingdom it was required. Under the gospel of grace it is not required but that does not mean that it is now banned." That is not in the Bible. Water baptism was a SYMBOL of cleansing, Paul practiced it because of the Jews, but after Acts we are told not to worry about religious rituals. After Acts there is no longer a remnant of Israel that we are trying to provoke. My friend said that water baptism is not "bannded". Well CIRCUMCISION is not "banned". However, Paul makes it clear that we are complete in Christ with spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism and that religious rituals do not MATTER and that we are NOT subject to them (Col. 2:6-23).
Colossians 2:6-3:2
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
My friend says "The local church and Lord's supper carried over into this age with some alterations according to new revelation. Why not baptism? " The "local church" carried over from the OLD TESTAMENT and as for the Lord's supper, it is not commanded for us to do. Paul tells us about it because we have liberty to do it, but we should "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink". Why would we be subject to ordinances (religious ritual ordinances)? (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) .
The reason water baptism didn't "carry over" is because the Bible does not say that it does. It's just that simple.
"What scripture teaches that after the Acts period it is now okay to be a stumblingblock? Paul condemned trying to be justified/sanctified by the works of the law in Phil. 3 and Col. 2. Where did he say water baptism was now dung? "
None--and I did not say or hint that there was. The truth is, Christ always broke unscriptural ordinances and traditions and then pointed out how unscriptural they were.
Mark 7:
[1] Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
[2] And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
[3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
[4] And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
[5] Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
[6] He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
[7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctines the commandments of men.
[8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
[10] For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
[11] But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
[12] And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
[13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Paul did not specifically say that even circumcision was dung--"dung" is referring to "ALL THINGS" that are not Christ's commandments and that produce "confidence in the flesh". Washing the body as a symbol of purification IS part of the law and it IS dung according to Phil. 3:8.
Philippians 3:
[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
My friend said "Was Paul's baptism just the idea of Ananias? Christ told Paul that when he got to Damascus he would be told of all things it was "appointed" for him to do (Acts 22:10). Christ sent Ananias to Paul. Evidently it was appointed for Paul, our pattern, to be baptized AFTER his conversion as a SYMBOL and IDENTIFICATION with Christ. "
Acts 9:
[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
[11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
[12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
[13] Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
[14] And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:
[10] And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
[11] And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
[12] And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
[13] Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
[14] And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
[15] For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
For my friend to say that water baptism was something that was "appointed" for Paul to do and one of the things that Paul "MUST do" (Acts 9:6). That sounds like Church of Christ teaching. The thing that Paul "MUST do" was preach the gospel!
Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
1 Corinthians 9:
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
[17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Galatians 1:
[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
The Baptist position is completely based on assumption, with very little scripture to backup their claims.
Also, Aninias plainly said what Christ sent Him to do for Paul "that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 9:17--filled with the Holy Ghost means given apostolic power and such, Paul was sealed with the Spirit as soon as he received the gospel according to Eph. 1:13).
Aninias said "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. [And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. " (Acts 9:17, 22:16). I believe it is quite clear that Aninias is the one who got the idea for Paul to be baptized. The "and now" seems to indicate that Aninias got the idea, it is not in what Christ sent Aninias to do for Paul according to Acts 9:17.
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
My friend said "Under the gospel of the kingdom it was required. Under the gospel of grace it is not required but that does not mean that it is now banned." That is not in the Bible. Water baptism was a SYMBOL of cleansing, Paul practiced it because of the Jews, but after Acts we are told not to worry about religious rituals. After Acts there is no longer a remnant of Israel that we are trying to provoke. My friend said that water baptism is not "bannded". Well CIRCUMCISION is not "banned". However, Paul makes it clear that we are complete in Christ with spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism and that religious rituals do not MATTER and that we are NOT subject to them (Col. 2:6-23).
Colossians 2:6-3:2
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
My friend says "The local church and Lord's supper carried over into this age with some alterations according to new revelation. Why not baptism? " The "local church" carried over from the OLD TESTAMENT and as for the Lord's supper, it is not commanded for us to do. Paul tells us about it because we have liberty to do it, but we should "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink". Why would we be subject to ordinances (religious ritual ordinances)? (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) .
The reason water baptism didn't "carry over" is because the Bible does not say that it does. It's just that simple.
"What scripture teaches that after the Acts period it is now okay to be a stumblingblock? Paul condemned trying to be justified/sanctified by the works of the law in Phil. 3 and Col. 2. Where did he say water baptism was now dung? "
None--and I did not say or hint that there was. The truth is, Christ always broke unscriptural ordinances and traditions and then pointed out how unscriptural they were.
Mark 7:
[1] Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
[2] And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
[3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
[4] And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
[5] Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
[6] He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
[7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctines the commandments of men.
[8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
[10] For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
[11] But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
[12] And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
[13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Paul did not specifically say that even circumcision was dung--"dung" is referring to "ALL THINGS" that are not Christ's commandments and that produce "confidence in the flesh". Washing the body as a symbol of purification IS part of the law and it IS dung according to Phil. 3:8.
Philippians 3:
[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
My friend said "Was Paul's baptism just the idea of Ananias? Christ told Paul that when he got to Damascus he would be told of all things it was "appointed" for him to do (Acts 22:10). Christ sent Ananias to Paul. Evidently it was appointed for Paul, our pattern, to be baptized AFTER his conversion as a SYMBOL and IDENTIFICATION with Christ. "
Acts 9:
[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
[11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
[12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
[13] Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
[14] And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:
[10] And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
[11] And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
[12] And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
[13] Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
[14] And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
[15] For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
For my friend to say that water baptism was something that was "appointed" for Paul to do and one of the things that Paul "MUST do" (Acts 9:6). That sounds like Church of Christ teaching. The thing that Paul "MUST do" was preach the gospel!
Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
1 Corinthians 9:
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
[17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Galatians 1:
[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
The Baptist position is completely based on assumption, with very little scripture to backup their claims.
Also, Aninias plainly said what Christ sent Him to do for Paul "that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 9:17--filled with the Holy Ghost means given apostolic power and such, Paul was sealed with the Spirit as soon as he received the gospel according to Eph. 1:13).
Aninias said "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. [And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. " (Acts 9:17, 22:16). I believe it is quite clear that Aninias is the one who got the idea for Paul to be baptized. The "and now" seems to indicate that Aninias got the idea, it is not in what Christ sent Aninias to do for Paul according to Acts 9:17.
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
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