An answer to "BEWARE OF HYPER DISPENSATIONALISM"

In red is an article by David Cloud, an anti-dispensationalist that couldn't rightly divide a Kit Kat bar. His words in red, mine in green. --Hoss

 

BEWARE OF HYPER DISPENSATIONALISM

(BEWARE OF INDEPENDENT, FUNYMENTAL, BAPTISTS)
The following is an excerpt from our book “How to Study the Bible.” For more about Dispensationalism, see the article “Study the Bible Dispensationally.”

(You don't know how to study the Bible. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.)

“Hyper-dispensationalism” is characterized by making a sharp division between the ministry of Christ and that of the Apostles, and of further dividing Paul’s teaching from that of Peter and the other apostles. Some of the well-known teachers of hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism are E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker. There are many varieties of hyper-dispensationalism, but the following are some of the characteristics: 

(Bullinger and Belch were Acts 28 apostates and Bible butchers. They were legitimately labeled as "hyper". I am an Acts 9, Mid-Acts, Pauline, Rightly -Dividing, Dispensationalist. Say that five times fast Mr. Bupdizzzt. )
(1) The four Gospels are entirely Jewish and contain no direct teaching for the churches. Yet, the writer of Hebrews said that the same gospel of salvation that was preached by the apostles was preached by Christ (Heb. 2:3-4). Though we know that Christ presented Himself to the Jewish nation and we do understand that there are differences between the gospels and the epistles, yet in Hebrews 2 we do not see a sharp delineation between the gospel preached by Christ and that preached by the apostles who followed. In fact, the Gospel of John presents exactly the same gospel as that preached by Paul. Further, 1 Timothy 6:3 shows that Christ spoke directly to the church age. 

(Ha. What a joke buddy. Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers".  The dispensation of grace body of Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile. 

 

Christ said in Matthew 10, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Do you do that? Christ also said in Matthew 19 that we must keep the commandments and sell all our possessions to be saved. Do you do that, or do you say "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" and "not of works lest any man should boast"???? 

 

Paul's gospel preached in the book of John? Really? Because Christ tells people to believe on Him? Well believing on God is a transdispensational thing obviously. The problem is that in the gospels the gospel was "he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved". When somebody asks you what the gospel is do you ever attach an "and" to believing on Christ? See this post http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-washing-of-regeneration-refuting.html )

(2) The book of Acts is also largely Jewish. Hyper-dispensationalists commonly believe that after Christ was rejected by Israel in the Gospels, that they were given a second chance to receive the kingdom in the first part of the book of Acts. Thus, they teach that there are two different churches viewed in the book of Acts, and the true Pauline church only started after Acts 9, 13, or 28. The church mentioned in the first part of Acts allegedly refers to a different church than that of Paul’s prison epistles. The earlier “church” in Acts is simply an aspect of the kingdom preached in the Gospels. Most of the book of Acts is therefore discounted as a guideline for the churches today. Yet, at the very end of the book of Acts we still find Paul preaching about the kingdom (Acts 28:23). In fact, he was still preaching about it in his epistles! (2 Thess. 1:5; 2 Tim. 4:1). While we can see an obvious transition in the book of Acts, and not everything in Acts continues to be in effect in the churches today (e.g., tongues speaking and apostolic sign gifts) this does not mean that there are different gospels and different churches in various parts of Acts. The book of Acts is a book about and for the churches. The pattern of the first church as described in Acts 2 is the pattern for the churches throughout the age, except for the temporary and unique aspects pertaining to the coming of the Holy Spirit and the apostolic miracles. 

(Ahh. Straw man arguments and moot points. The apostles in early Acts were offering the kingdom to Israel and Peter even says so....

 

Acts 3:

[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
[20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

 

Do you tell lost people that if they repent and convert that Christ will remit theirs sins at the 2nd coming?

 

And what is your point about the church thing? A church is a called out assembly or congregation and God has always had one. By definition Noah and his family were a church (though not called that by name). Israel in Exodus were a church (Acts 7:38). "Church" and "congregation" are synonyms, the Bible uses them interchangeably quoting OT to NT (Heb. 2:12 with Ps. 22:22-28). 

 

And yes, there were different gospels in Acts. 

 

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

 

Some people have tried to say that this only is referring to who Peter and Paul were sent to preach the gospel to and not that they had different gospels. But wasn't Peter sent to "all nations" and "every creature"? (Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:15)   )
(3) The mysteries given to Paul are a different revelation from that given to Peter and the other Apostles, and only Paul’s writings are directly for the church today. The other epistles, such as Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and the epistles of John are not for us today in a direct sense. Yet, Paul himself said that the church is built upon the “apostleS” plural and not merely upon himself (Eph. 2:20) and the mysteries were “revealed unto his holy apostleS and prophetS” (Eph. 3:5) and not to him alone. Peter also referred to the writings of Paul and made no distinction between Paul’s teaching and the teaching of the other apostles (2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16). Peter said Paul wrote to the same people and preached the same message. Though we know that Paul was the special apostle of the Gentiles and he was given unique revelations about the church as the body of Christ, his revelations in no way contradict the revelations given in the General Epistles (Hebrews - Jude). 

(Don't contradict huh? Here is an excerpt from another post of mine.....

 

 "1.) The kingdom was being offered to Israel and they were being warned of God's wrath and the tribulation period (Matthew 3:1-12)

2.) You will notice that the Jews were expecting Christ to baptize (John 1:25) and it was because of these prophecies about Christ sprinkling water upon them (Isa. 52:15, Ezek. 36:25). Water baptism was a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. Water baptism raised a question about purifying, John 3:25-26, and that was the law sprinkling, Numbers 8:6-7. It is also described in Hebrews 10:22. The disciples of Christ were baptizing without preaching or even understanding the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (John 4:1-2, Mark 9:31-32). Therefore water baptism had nothing to do with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

3.) The gospel being preached by John, Christ, and the twelve was the "gospel of the kingdom" and it required selling all, water baptism, and forgiving others (Matt. 24:14, Acts 2:38, 3:19, Mark 16:15-16). This gospel was being offered to Israel because that is where the kingdom would be set up, but it would go to all nations and then the end would come. 

4.) Since the gospel of the kingdom was primarily to the Jews and was to begin at Jerusalem (Matt. 10:5-7, Luke 24:47) it was to be confirmed with signs and wonders (Mark 16:15-20, Act 2:38-45) because the Jews require a sign (1 Cor. 1:22, John 4:48). 

5.) The kingdom gospel believers had to live by their own faith and be justified by their own faith (Heb. 10:22-23, 38-39, Hab. 2:4, 1 John 2:5, James 2:22, 1 Pet. 1:7-10, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 5:1-4). Man's faith has to be proven by works and made perfect through trial. Which is why they could "scarcely be saved" (1 Pet. 4:18). The Jews got this justification and their sins remitted after the tribulation period when Christ came because at that point their faith would have been tried and made perfect (Jer. 31:31-34, 32:37-42, Ezek. 36:24-31, 1 Pet. 1:7-10, Acts 3:19-26). Which is why Peter said in Acts 3, "repent therefore that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord".

But.....

1.) Israel blasphemed the Holy Ghost in Acts 7 by killing a man filled with the Holy Ghost and this was unpardonable (Mark 3:28-29, Luke 12:10, Acts 5 and 7)

2.) Paul got saved in Acts 9 even though he had just blasphemed the Holy Ghost (Acts 7, 1 Tim. 1:13) and a new dispensation was given through him (Ephesians 3:1-9, Colossians 1:25-27). Paul received new exceeding abundant grace and longsuffering, "And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." (1 Tim. 1:14-16) "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon." (1 Cor. 3:10)

3.) Paul was instantly justified from all things and his faith did not need to be tried or made perfect because he was justified by the faith of Christ..........

Romans 3:

[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Galatians 2:

[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Notice Gal 2:20 is in direct contrast with Hab. 2:4, "the just shall live by his faith".

This is the faith of Christ....

Philippians 2:

[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That is how Paul could say "by him all that believe are justified from all things" Acts 13:39. I have a whole post on this http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/faith-in-christ-and-faith-of-christ.html

Also, faith IN Christ vs faith OF Christ is only a KJB truth, not even in the NKJV.

Now the people Christ was talking about in John 17 were going to be in Him and abide in Him by keeping His word and commandments. (by works faith is made perfect, James 2:22) Paul's salvation was the first one to be by "the faith of Christ" rather than his own faith. This was a pattern to those who would believe after Paul according to 1 Tim. 1:14-16 and 1 Cor. 3:10. 

4.) Now we do not have to sell all and prove our faith to earn a seat in Christ's kingdom (Matt. 19:28, Rev. 3:21). The kingdom gospel believers had this promise, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne". But we in the dispensation of grace are presently seated with Christ because we are members of His body (Eph. 2:6, 1 Cor. 12:13). 

5.) In this dispensation we do not have to sell all, 2 Thessalonians 3:8-12. 

6.) In this dispensation there are no signs and wonders, they were for Israel but ceased with the completion of the NT (1 Cor. 1:22, 8:13) http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/hoss-vs-brian-kelson-of-acts-28net-1.html 

7.) Paul was not sent to baptize (1 Cor. 1:17) and he did not baptize all his converts (Acts 13). Paul did things to please the Jews and provoke the Jews but stopped after Acts http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/gods-plan-for-dispensation-of-grace.html  Water baptism was one of those things and ceased after Acts 28 because Ephesians 4:1-6 states that we need to walk worthy of our calling which only includes "one baptism" which is the baptism by the Spirit I already covered. 

 

HOSS VS A BUPTIST (Part 1)

http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/hoss-vs-buptist-part-1.html

HOSS VS A BUPTIST (PART 2)

http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/hoss-vs-buptist-part-2.html "

And the passages you quote for Peter saying that him and Paul preached the same thing is just Peter saying that Paul said that "the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation" which is true in any dispensation and for anybody. That means nothing. As for saying that the body of Christ is built on the OT, Ephesians 2 does not say the body of Christ it says the "household of God". The body of Christ was a mystery hid in God until revealed to Paul. Paul laid the foundation for the new dispensation according to the grace that Christ gave him (1 Tim. 1:14-16, Eph. 3:1-9,  1 Cor. 3:10).

(4) The gospel preached by Peter in the early part of the book of Acts is different from the gospel preached by Paul. Yet, there is actually no difference between the gospel preached by Peter and that which Paul preached. Peter preached salvation through the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:2), salvation by God’s free mercy (1 Peter 1:3), the new birth (1 Peter 1:3), eternal security because of the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 1:3-4). Acts 15 plainly states that all of the apostles, including Peter and Paul, agreed on the gospel. Paul plainly said in 1 Cor. 15:11-14 that they all preached the same gospel. Even in Acts 2, Peter was preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ rather than a “kingdom gospel.” He preached Christ -- His crucifixion (Acts 2:23), resurrection (Acts 2:24-32), ascension and Lordship (Acts 2:33-36). He preached that the people should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). This is not a “kingdom gospel.” Further, Paul states in Galatians 1, that anyone who preached a different gospel was cursed. If Peter were truly preaching a different gospel in those days, he would have fallen under this curse. 

(Yawn. Where do you see Peter in Acts preach salvation by the cross? Where in Acts 2 did Christ die for anyone's sins? Nowhere. See my comments to point #3 and see this post http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/faqs-to-hyper-dispensationalism.html http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/faqs-to-hyper-dispensationalism.html
(5) Baptism and the Lord’s Supper were given to Paul before he received the church age mysteries; thus they are not for the churches today. Hyper-dispensationalists differ on this point. Some accept both baptism and the Lord’s Supper; some reject water baptism and the Lord’s Supper altogether; while others reject only baptism and keep the Lord’s Supper. 

(So? Neither one are required, this doesn't matter. 

  

More one water baptism and right division.  
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/more-one-water-baptism-and-right.html
  
Hoss's reply to Herb Evans on baptism. 
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/hosss-reply-to-herb-evans-on-baptism.html

Baptism questions answered. 
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/baptism-questions-answered.html

No water baptism, but keep the Lord's supper. 
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/no-water-baptism-but-keep-lords-supper.html 

 

HOSS VS A BUPTIST (Part 1)

http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/hoss-vs-buptist-part-1.html

HOSS VS A BUPTIST (PART 2)

http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/hoss-vs-buptist-part-2.html

 

The "washing of regeneration". Refuting Cambellite teaching with right division.  
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-washing-of-regeneration-refuting.html

A response to water baptizers and local church onlyism.  
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/a-response-to-water-baptizers-and-local.html

 

(6) According to hyper-dispensationalism there are different ways of salvation in the Old Testament and during the Tribulation. Peter Ruckman, for example, teaches that men were saved by faith plus works in the Old Testament and that they will be saved by faith plus works in the Tribulation and by works alone in the Millennium. In Millions Disappear: Fact or Fiction? Ruckman says: “If the Lord comes and you remain behind, then start working like a madman to get to heaven, because you’re going to have to. ... You must keep the Ten Commandments (all of them, Ecclesiastes 12:13), keep the Golden Rule (1 John 3:10), give your money to the poor, get baptized, take up your cross, hold out to the end of the Tribulation, wait for Jesus Christ to show up at the Battle of Armageddon, and be prepared to die for what you believe. In the Tribulation you cannot be saved by grace alone, like you could before the Rapture.” In fact, Romans 4:1-8 plainly states that Abraham before the law and David under the law were saved by faith without works. This is the only plan of salvation God ever has had and ever will have--salvation by grace alone through faith alone based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone. The Old Testament saints did not know what the New Testament saint knows, but Romans 4 makes it plain that they were saved by faith without works. Like Abraham, they believed God and it was counted unto them for righteousness. Those who are saved in the Tribulation will also be saved through faith in God’s Word and by the blood of Jesus Christ and through this alone (Rev. 7:14).

(Yawn. 

 

 http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/faqs-to-hyper-dispensationalism.html

 

 http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-washing-of-regeneration-refuting.html

 

 The message and mission of John the Baptist. (NT right division) 
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-message-and-mission-of-john-baptist.html

The message and mission of the 12 apostles. (pre-cross) NT right division 
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-message-and-mission-of-12-apostles.html

The message and mission of the 12 apostles. (post cross) NT right division 
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-message-and-mission-of-12-apostles_26.html

The message and mission of the 12 apostles. (Post-cross part 2) NT right division 
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-message-and-mission-of-12-apostles_9470.html

Examination of James 2 and justification by faith.
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/04/examination-of-james-2-and.html

 

Hoss vs Herb....again! (Part 2)

Hoss: This was just my second reply and it is already pretty long. I recommend we switch to going point counter point on those 4 reasons for the universal church I sent you, I think it is a little more relevant. Is that okay with you or would did you have in mind? --Hoss

EVANS: We can start with that if you like, but I do want to finish the former. Subsequent posts can be one a day alternately and splitting them up into sections will work.

1.) Paul is the only one who talks about the body of Christ

Herb Evans: That is like saying that Paul is the only one that wrote the Pauline epistles.

HOSS: Not when you have my premise, that the body of Christ is a spiritual and universal church that began in Acts 9 with Paul's conversion.

Herb Evans: My point is that you can't legitimately force a doctrine out of who says what first or who was the only one that wrote something.

HOSS: You are half way right. 

2.) Paul seems to be the first one to know about the body of Christ and the new dispensational changes.

Herb Evans: Being taught in the dessert for two years may have something to do with Paul bring the one to explain church truth and symbolism. Still, he is the first to clothe the church in the metaphor of a temple and a building but not as a flock or a bride. Still, Paul was  not the first to mention the church by any means. 

Here I have posted four reasons (scripture included with rationale) on why I believe that the body of Christ is a spiritual and universal church. – Hoss

Herb Evans: Already, we have a problem. You are using spiritual as if the body was a spirit church, namely, mystical. Some do that with baptism. My response always is, “Do you mean a local church and water baptism are not spiritual.

HOSS: True, Christ revealed much to Paul personally. But like I said, I don'y believe that the body of Christ is symbollism.

Evans: Do you believe that the FLOCK is symbolism? Do you believe the temple and building are symbolism. Of course, who cares what someone believes; I care what they can prove or disprove.

HOSS: Which flock? Church, flock, congregation, assembly, etc. are pretty much the same. I think we should be debating this http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/4-reasons-to-believe-in-universal.html

( it was also sent as an email)

 

HOSS: A church is a called out assembly or congregation . . .

EVANS: TRUE . . .

HOSS: . . . and God has always had one.

EVANS: FALSE!

HOSS: What I meant was God has always had His flock, congregation, church, etc. whether it was Adam and Eve, Noah and his family, Moses and his group, the disciples in the gospels, etc. Israel in Exodus were a church (Acts 7:38). "Church" and "congregation" are synonyms, the Bible uses them interchangeably quoting OT to NT (Heb. 2:12 with Ps. 22:22-28).

 

HOSS: By definition Noah and his family were a church (though not called that by name).

EVANS: FALSE 

HOSS: They were a called out assembly, separated, independent, fundemental, etc. and they were landmarkers. (they did not believe in the universal church) And they also placed heavy emphasis on water baptism (1 Peter 3:20). Joke. 

HOSS: Israel in Exodus were a church (Acts 7:38).

EVANS: TRUE!

HOSS: "Church" and "congregation" are synonyms, the Bible uses them interchangeably quoting OT to NT (Heb. 2:12 with Ps. 22:22-28).

EVANS: True! Actually this is very good; it can be used to prove that Jesus’ church sang after the Lord’s Supper.

Ephesians 3:[2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:

Herb Evans: Obviously from this verse there is the possibility of some hearing this before hearing Paul, nevertheless it is the Ephesians that are the latest benefactors of the dispensation of grace in this passage. The verse does not say when the dispensation was started or that it was a revelation to Paul.

HOSS: Not really. Paul just asked them if they had heard what God had given to him. A dispensing of grace for a pattern to those who would believe after him. (Eph. 3:3 and 1 Tim. 1:16 which we have already discussed)

 

 John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:16, 17  And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:1 - the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

HOSS: Well Colossians 1:25 says, "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" 

EVANS: Does this mean that the dispensation of God was only given to only Paul for only the Collosians.

HOSS: No. It means that the dispensation was given through Paul to everybody. He was just talking to the Colossians when he wrote that epistle. 

 

HOSS:  And I agree, grace starts from Genesis 1-Revelation 22. Grace is unmerited favor that God shows you. John the Baptist was still under the law, it was Christ that fulfilled the law and His death that changed it Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law". Though I do realize that John the Baptist and the twelve did have some new teachings that came along with the gospel of the kingdom. There wasn't a passibility of anyone hearing the mystery before Paul. Paul just asked if the Ephesians had heard that Christ had revealed it to him and that he had wrote about it before but only briefly.  

EVANS: Why did John the Baptist eat locusts? Your problem is that you do not understand progressive revelation. John the Baptist revealed the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the WORLD. You are spinning your wheels here and don't even know what the mystery is.

HOSS: Read this.... http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/acts-837-should-it-be-in-authorized.html  You either have to admit that John the Baptist had special revelation given to him that he did not teach to everyone, or that he was not talking about the sacrificial death of Christ. 

 

  [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Herb Evans: First of all, who was the mystery revealed to? To Paul alone or to the holy apostles and prophets? Second. what was the mystery? Was the mystery not that there would be an invisible, universal body or rather that the Gentiles would also be fellow heirs of that body and partake of the gospel?

HOSS: As seen above it was revealed to Paul. It was (at the writing of Ephesians) "NOW REVEALED" to the other apostles by the Spirit. Before (such as Acts 15) they had only heard about it through Paul. But now the Spirit was revealing it to them for them to teach. It is clear by the events with Peter in Acts 10 and 15 that Peter didn't know the mystery. 

EVANS: Where do you get the word "NOW?" Did you make it up? Still, what in the world do you mean by it. The mystery? What is a mystery? That i s the mystery here?    

HOSS: I meant that it is obvious that in Acts 10 and 15 Peter did not understand the mystery dispensation where Israel is fallen and all men are considered heathens and in unbelief. Peter did not want to go to Gentiles without Jews being present because he was offering Israel their Messiah and it would not make sense to offer Gentiles the Jewish kingdom without the Jews believing first. It was Paul that revealed that. 

  

FAQ per Hoss: As for question #4, here is this from my FAQ to hyper dispy post. "The body of Christ was a mystery "hid in God" and "a great mystery" until made known to Paul in Acts 9. (Eph. 3:1-9, 5:22-32)

EVANS: I don't see anything in Acts 9 that even suggests a mystery revealed to Paul. Is this an argument by silence? Moreover, I don't see anything about a body in Eph 3:1-9. Also, the only thing I see in Eph 5 is Eph. 5:30 - 32.

Just as a Husband is joined to his wife and also a fornicator to a harlot, Christ is joined to the church as its HEAD.   Was there universal bodies in Genesis and 2 Samuel?

HOSS: I don't really know what you are talking about. Paul received his gospel and message about the Jew and Gentile being one at Acts 9, see Acts 26

 [17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
[18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Galatians 2:7  But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me.......1 Corinthians 15:[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received.....

That was a dispensation of the gospel...1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Also, Paul was the pattern from when he got saved in Acts 9...1 Timothy [11] According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;[13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

After this grace was given to Paul he began to lay the foundation of it. 1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Gen 29:14 And Laban said to him, Surely thou art my bone and my flesh. And he abode with him the space of a month.

2 Sam 19:13 And say ye to Amasa, Art thou not of my bone, and of my flesh? God do so to me, and more also, if thou be not captain of the host before me continually in the room of Joab.

HOSS: The universal church (the body of Christ) is joined to Christ and are one spirit. The members are one body in Christ. They are members of His flesh and of His bones. We are crucified with Him, buried, with Him, raised with Him, and seated with Him. (which we have already discussed). 

Paul used those doctrines and made practical application to how a husband and wife should be. Hope that helps! 

  

FAQ per HOSS:  We don't see any other writer of scripture mention it or preach it. After Acts 7 (the temporary fall of Israel) all men were considered "heathen" and in unbelief.

        EVANS: So what? We do not hear anyone else preach the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world before John the Baptist. Does that mean a new dispensation here?

HOSS: See http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/acts-837-should-it-be-in-authorized.html

HOSS: Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

However, Paul still went to the "Jew first" all through the book of Acts. Israel had fallen and were not God's people (Rom. 11:25), they were "HEATHEN". That is unless Paul just lied to the apostles.

Romans 11: [30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.Also note that Peter preached his message to Jews and Gentiles in Acts 2 (Acts 2:10, 39), but he did not know the mystery (Eph. 3:1-9, Acts 10, Acts 15, Gal. 2).

EVANS: I fail to see how this relates to the body of Christ. What if it was agreed that Paul should go to Ethiopia. Does perceiving grace in someone constitute a new dispensation or a new revelation?

HOSS: I am not sure I know what you are talking about. 

 

Ephesians 5:[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. [31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. [32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Romans 11:25 

Herb Evans: The second part of the mystery is that the CHURCH as a BODY  are united with Christ in a special way just as the husband and wife and also a fornicator and a harlot are AS ONE FLESH. Does that mean that there exists an invisible, universal husband, wife, fornicator, and harlot?

HOSS: The mystery is that ALL (saved) Gentiles everywhere are "fellowheirs", "of the same body" and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel (Eph. 3:6). All Gentiles are not of the same local church. Christ did not reconcile Jew and Gentile into one local church, the church is not "as a body" because it is a spiritual church and is THE mystical, universal, spiritual, (etc). body of Christ.  

Christ is one body, not many. 

 

HOSS: The mystery in Ephesians 5 is that we are members of Christ and that Christ loves us as His own body. Just as the husband should the wife. 

EVANS: No, it says that we are members of His BODY, FLESH, AND BONES. See my comments above on the universal BODIES in Genesis.

HOSS: Ok.  

HOSS: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Herb Evans: Again, the mystery mainly has to do with the rights and privileges of the Gentiles in regards to the church.

HOSS: I assume you are talking about rights and priviledges in the local church? But that isn't a mystery,

EVANS: No, I am talking about the rights and privilege in a combined commonwealth of believers. The Gentiles were not proselyted, they were grafted into the tree.

HOSS: Yes but Ephesians 2 says that Christ reconciled Jew and Gentile into one body. Jew and Gentile were already going to the same local churches and so that is not a mystery and it was not done by the cross. Gentiles could already proselyte to Judaism and have full privileges. 

 

3.) Paul seems to have been the "pattern" and start for something new.

Herb Evans: Seems to have? Seems to have? IS that more doctrine by suggestion?

HOSS: No assumption at all, I pasted the verse that plain states as a fact what I just said. I just said "seems to" so that I did not come across as arrogant. 

 

1 Timothy 1:[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Herb Evans: Now, just exactly what is your pattern? The pattern here is the pattern of longsuffering of Jesus Christ being shown in Paul.

HOSS: The pattern is the exceeding abundant grace and all longsuffering that was given to Paul first, meaning the dispensation of grace as we discussed in Ephesians 3.

 

HOSS: Which is why I believe that the dispensation of grace began with Paul. 1 Timothy 1: 12 -16:[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;[13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

HOSS: If the dispensation of grace had already begun than Paul really couldn't have became a pattern as far as grace and longsuffering goes.

EVANS: Why not. Do you want all the grace passages before Timothy of before Acts 9? It is the pattern of Paul's longsuffering and trials and sufferings in Paul and not grace that are a pattern for those who follow. Are you saying things just to say things

HOSS: All I am saying is that Paul was the pattern for exceeding abundant grace and longsuffering (dispensation of grace) was given through Paul first for a pattern afterwards. 

 

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Herb Evans: Foundation of what? Certainly not a building in the sky.

HOSS: Foundation of the new dispensation. This foundation Paul laid is in connection with the grace given to him. (as we saw in Ephesians 3 above)

EVANS: Is that another guess or is it an inference or an assumption, for I do not see that in this passage. I thought Christ was and is the foundation.

HOSS: Christ gave the dispensation through Paul and He and His finished work is the foundation of it. But the doctrine and gospel committed to Paul was something Paul got before anyone else, he laid the foundation because the dispensation of grace was our pattern and in him first. 

 

My guess is that it started with Paul in Acts 9.

Herb Evans: And that is another guess that is assumed.

HOSS: Nothing was guessed or assumed. The dispensation of grace and revelation of the mystery was given to him in Acts 9 as I have already discussed.

 

HOSS: God didn't tell us in His Book when the body of Christ began, we have to assume. But we can pretty much narrow it down to a couple of places.

EVANS: Then why all this dogmatic fuss about Acts 9 if you are only asssuming it. Must I rely on your assumptions? I don't even really on Peter Ruchman's, and we have agreed to disagree. 

HOSS: No, I told you not to rely on my assumption. But I didn't assume anything. 

 

HOSS: The fact is, if God wanted us to know when it started than he would have told us.

EVANS: Well, at least, you would think that he would have given us some timeline indications. But then, He has.

HOSS: However, He did let us know that Paul is the one who revealed the doctrine of it. That's the main thing. 

EVANS: What do you mean "US" paleface? What? Am I chopped liver? He did not let me know. How did He reveal it to you?

HOSS: Through the word of God (KJB).

 

HOSS: But I can't prove it.

Herb Evans: Neither can your buddies. We are to prove all things and not merely to claim them.

HOSS: But I did prove the new dispensation and revelation of the mystery was given to Paul first. You have yet to prove that the body of Christ is actually thousands of local churches that are actually bodies of Christ. 

 

HOSS: You are correct. We are to base our doctrine on what the Bible says (2 Tim. 2:15) and not other peoples assumptions and guesses. If you believe the Bible teaches that the body of Christ is a local church that began with John the Baptist than that is what you should believe and teach. But I don't have to prove anything that the Bible doesn't plainly state. 

EVANS: But you do have to prove some of your dogmatic claims and doctrines. I do not have an agenda like you fellows do. All I am doing is countering your claims and false statements. That is my agenda - polemics. 

HOSS: Ok.

 

HOSS: All I have to prove is that Paul is our pattern, that the new dispensation was given through him, that Christ revealed grace dispensation doctrine to him, and that he is our apostle.

EVANS:  Yes, but when are you going to prove it? You have not so far.

HOSS: I have, several times. However, you have yet to prove your local church onlyism. 

 

HOSS: Acts is a transitional book so it is hard to pin point it exactly. I know it started WAY BEFORE Acts 28. It can't really be proven to have started at Matthew 10, the cross, Acts 2, or Acts 9.

Herb Evans: So is Corinthians a transitional book which proves nothing.  The gospel, salvation, the church, and the flock existed in the gospels, so can they exist without being started?

HOSS: What do you mean "THE" gospel, "THE" church, "THE" etc. ???

 

HOSS: I have no idea what you just said. But let's stick to the universal vs local debate for now. 

EVANS: Is Corintians a transitional Book or should we practice tongues, and prophecy, and revelations? Do you deny that the gospel, salvation, the church, and the flock existed in the four gospels. If you do not deny it, then it is a short distance to them having to be started.

HOSS: Acts was a transition period and some things written in Acts were transitional.

  

HOSS: The important thing is I know it started and that Paul is the one who revealed it by inspiration.

EVANS: Well how do you know an assumption?

HOSS: I have already proved it.

  

Herb Evans: Just what is the "IT" that Paul revealed. Certainly not the church that was mentioned before Paul mentioned it. And Paul equated the church with the body. Can the church exist not being the body, except generically?

HOSS: Really? I already told you we need to debate my universal body of Christ article before we do this, if we don't you'll keep telling me stuff like this. The church is the spiritual, mystical, universal, blah blah, etc. and it was first revealed to Paul. All congregations are churches, the Bible uses them interchangebly. There are churches all through the Bible (OT and NT). But there is only ONE spiritual, mystical, etc. body of Christ. 

 

HOSS: What church are you talking about? A church is a called out assembly or congregation and God has always had one.

EVANS: The church in the gospels that is called a congregation later on.

EVANS: FALSE! What a stretch! Do I hear John R. Rice?

 HOSS: Israel in Exodus were a church (Acts 7:38). "Church" and "congregation" are synonyms, the Bible uses them interchangeably quoting OT to NT (Heb. 2:12 with Ps. 22:22-28).

EVANS: TRUE! Very good, proof that the gospel church sang in the gospels after the Lord's Supper.

HOSS: You can have your opinion. 

 

HOSS: My guesses to when it started are the cross, Acts 2, or Acts 9. I see no other possibilities.

      Herb Evans: There you go guessing again. How could it be at Acts 2 or at the cross, when Paul was not saved yet? I see another possibility. I'll you guess!

HOSS: It had to have started at Acts 9. That is when the mystery and grace dispensation was revealed.

 

HOSS: I HAVE TO GUESS, because the Bible doesn't say when, EXACTLY. I gave Acts 2 and the cross as possibilites, I believe it started with Paul though. 

EVANS: May I guess with evidence that it was Matthew 10 and Luke 10? 

HOSS: I am not interested in guessing.

 

HOSS: Further, I think the cross, burial, resurrection and seating of Christ are needful for the universal church to exist because those seem to be enablers of the universal church's existence.

Herb Evans: I thinker your thinker is broke. There is no universal church. That is Catholic and Martin Luther and the thinking that they thunk.

HOSS: That is your assumption. You have yet to prove your local church onlyism. 

 

HOSS: Now that is something we can prove.

EVANS: Be my guest!

HOSS: I did. 

 

Ephesians 1:[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Herb Evans: Unfortunately, this does not demand an invisible, universal body. Christ is the Head of the local church body. If not, let's all worship on the creek bank.

HOSS: We can worship anywhere at anytime.

EVANS: True, but I know folks who worship on the creek bank and forsake the assembling.

HOSS: We are the temple of the Holy Ghost and we are in Christ.

EVANS: True but that does not make you a body.

HOSS: A church building means nothing. 

EVANS:  TRUE! EXCEPT When it is raining!

HOSS: That is actually pretty good.

 

HOSS: Also, what is a "local church body"? I really wonder about all these terminologies people have for their denomination that do not appear in scripture.

EVANS: Well, organize assemblies that do business are all bodies, including the civil assemblies of Acts to the congress.

Ephesians 2:[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:........[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Herb Evans: We have already discussed what part of you is sitting in heaven and what part of you is still here. Still, this is discussing the broken down wall between Jew and Gentile, who were now ONE, a commonwealth with the same obligations and privileges for Jew and Gentiles that believe. Notice that they were reconciled BY THE CROSS and were MADE NIGH BY THE BLOOD rather than put into heaven or Christ's physical body. 

HOSS: Jew and Gentile already had the same rights and privileges if they were both following God's religion, Judaism. Jew and Gentile were doing that before the cross. 

 

HOSS: I agree, BY the cross and BY the blood of Christ is how we get into Christ.

EVANS: But we do not get into the church by the blood or the cross. One must be received by the church to get into the church to be a legitimate member.

HOSS: We get in the body of Christ by being baptized by the Spirit through the faith of the operation of God into Christ (the body). Where does the Bible say that one must be water baptized and voted into Christ? I thought God set the members in the body? 

 

HOSS: I'm not as hyper as you might think. I do believe we (the body of Christ) take part in the kingdom on earth primarily and I have even debated my pastor, David O'Steen, on the matter.

 Herb Evans: Oh? The problem here is that we do not agree on what the body of Christ is.

HOSS: Agreed, so let's debate my 4 points here http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/4-reasons-to-believe-in-universal.html

HOSS: Yep. 

EVANS: Well, get your heart right and then get water baptized.

HOSS: Why? and what mode? immersion, sprinkled/poured, or water ballooned?  

 

HOSS: I also believe that the 12 apostles got in the body of Christ at Acts 28 because as seen above the mystery got revealed to other apostles and prophets besides Paul. Some MAD leave the 12 out of the body.

Herb Evans: While you are correct that the apostles and prophets were revealed the same thing, if it gets you back peddled back to Acts 28 why not before Acts One? Moreover where is your record of an Acts 28 revelation, Acts 9, or anywhere else. I don't have that problem, for I do not see the church as a body to be a revelation but rather an illustrated metaphor of the Church just like the flock, the temple, the building, and the bride.        

HOSS: I say Acts 28 because they did not seem to know about it at any other time. Did you read my FAQ post? It is too long to post in point counter point debate. 

EVANS: Yes, seemed not to know. Another assumption.

HOSS: They obviously didn't know it because of what they wrote down in Hebrews-Revelation in Acts and also their attitudes in Acts 10 and 15.

 

See, I posted my scriptures with rationale.  --Hoss

Herb Evans: Amazing turn about!

P.S. You might note that the dispensations in the O.T. overlapped, hence also as they do in the gospels and Acts with law and grace and beyond. This could be the source off your problem.

HOSS: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. 

EVANS:  The dispensations of innocence, promise, concience, overlapped in the Old Testament. Law and Grace overlapped in the gospels as well as the temple and the church being side by side.

HOSS: Ok.