Ken Ham Vs Hugh Ross

I found this the other day...this best part is when Ken Ham hands Hugh Ross the Bible and says "show me the millions of years". Ken Ham is clearly scripturally right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNDzt84PcYA

The "tithing" curse...(part 2)

Here are twenty more point against tithing. I am not sure who the original author was that wrote them, but I first found this exact list from Pastor David O'Steen's blog: http://kjbstudy.blogspot.com/

1. The English word "tithe" means a tenth (compare Gen. 14:20 with Heb. 7:4). Most churches preach tithing as a means of supporting their ministry. There are variations in how they teach this is to be done. Some pay the local church one tenth of their income after taxes and bills are paid; some pay before. Others demand tithing on unemployment, inheritance, gifts, tax refunds, social security and even gambling winnings. The tithing issue has caused a great deal of strife and division in our churches over the years. 

2. Perhaps the most well known passage on tithing is Malachi 3:8-12. This passage is the proof text for "Storehouse Tithing." Simply stated, the congregation is exhorted to channel all of their giving through the local church (storehouse). If they want to give to a Christian organization, radio or television broadcast, etc., it must go through their denominational machinery in order for the local church to get "credit." Also the pastor and elders often must make the determination if the cause supported by the giver is "worthy." 

3. This use of the Malachi passage is a good example of Scripture being taken out of its historical and dispensational context. "This whole nation" in verse 9 is the backslidden nation of Israel, NOT the present day church (Mal. 1:1; 3:6). They were under the law of Moses as a system of conditional blessing (obey=blessed; disobey=cursed). The blessings of keeping the law had to do with Israel's LAND (3:11-12). Believers today are not under the law but under grace (Rom. 6:14; 7:4-6). As such we have already been blessed by God with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph.1:3). 

4. This should put an end to the common charge that believers who don't tithe are "robbing God" and will be "cursed with a curse." God did not command us to tithe so how could we be robbing Him by not doing what He never told us to do? We cannot be cursed by the law for not tithing (Mal. 3:9) as members of the body of Christ (Gal. 3:13). The storehouse mentioned in verse 10 is not a local church but a storage bin or silo in the Jewish temple where the grain from the Hebrew's tithes was stored (2 Chron. 31:4-12). 

5. Under the law only agricultural products were tithed. They included grain, fruit, and livestock. Only products produced within the boundaries of the land of Israel were to be tithed (Lev. 27:30-34). 

6. Others exempt from the tithing law included the hired hands, fishermen, miners, lumber workers, construction workers, soldiers, weavers, potters, manufacturers, merchants, government workers, and priests. In short, all who were not farmers were exempt. 

7. A farmer with only 9 cattle did not tithe because the law specified the "tenth which passeth under the rod." Likewise a farmer with 19 sheep paid only 1 sheep to the Lord's tithe. 

8. The Jewish farmers in the land could redeem (buy back) the tithes of their crops with a penalty of one fifth. In other words, if a farmer wanted to keep his tithe of grain worth $1,000, he could pay the cash equivalent of $1,200 (Lev. 27:31). 

9. Livestock could not be brought back nor could the farmer exchange a good animal for a bad one or vice versa. Any attempt to substitute any other animal other than the tenth which passed under the rod would be penalized by the farmer forfeiting both the tenth and its substitute (Lev. 27:33). 

10. God ordained the Levites to be the ones to whom the tithe was paid (Num. 18:21). They were one of the 12 tribes of Israel to whom no inheritance was given in the land. The Lord Himself and the tithes of the children of Israel was their inheritance. It was used for the service of the tabernacle (later the temple) (Num. 18:20-28). 

11. It was unlawful for anyone outside of the tribe of Levi to receive the tithe, such as prophets, preachers, kings or evangelists. 

12. The Levites paid one tenth of their tithes to the high priest. Not all Levites were priests but only the sons of Aaron. The priests did not tithe. 

13. The Lord Jesus Christ did not ask for or receive a tithe for support of His ministry. Being of the tribe of Judah (not Levi) He could not without breaking the law (Heb. 7:14; Rev. 5:5). 

14. Neither Peter (not of the tribe of Levi) nor Paul (of the tribe of Benjamin) could receive tithes for the support of their ministries. 

15. Even the Jews do not practice tithing today because there are no Levites, priests, or temple worship in Jerusalem. Jewish rabbis know biblical law well enough to know that tithing under the present circumstances is unlawful. According to them, when the temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem with a consecrated altar with priests and Levites officiating, all Jews living within the biblical tithing zones will tithe. 

16. Those that teach tithing is binding on believers today use the argument that it predates Moses and the law. But this reasoning is not valid, for the Sabbath also predates the giving of the law (Ex.16:23-29) and yet it is not binding on God's people today (Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4:9-10; Col. 2:16-17). 

17. Abraham gave tithes to Melchisedec, king of Salem, but this was the spoils of war, not the legalistic tithe of the land which Moses commanded. Also, God did not command the tithe, Abraham chose to give it of his own free will (Gen. 14:17-23; Heb. 7:1-10). 

18. The only other scriptural reference to tithing before Moses is Jacob. Again there is no command to tithe. In fact Jacob puts up numerous conditions to be met before he will pay the tithe to the Lord (Gen. 28:20-22). 

19. The biblical references which address the tithing issues are: Gen. 14:20; 28:22; Lev. 27:30-32; Num. 18:20-32; Deut. 12:6-7, 11-12, 17; 14:22-23,28-29; 26:12-15; 2 Chron. 31:1-12; Amos 4:4-5; Mal. 3:8-12; Matt. 23:23; Lk. 11:42; 18:12; Heb. 7:5-10.

20. Paul the apostle to the Gentiles for this present dispensation of Grace does not mention tithing but says a great deal about grace giving (Rom. 15:25,26; 1 Cor. 9:7-14; 16:1-3; 2 Cor. 8 & 9; Gal. 6:6-10; Phil. 4:10-19; 1 Tim.  5:9-18).

The "tithing" curse...(part 1)

Here are 20 reasons why you should not observe the tithe, but rather follow the principles of giving that Paul delivered to the Body of Christ under Grace. They come from Pastor Justin Johnson of Grace Ambassadors Church: http://graceambassadors.com/prophecy/law/reasons-to-stop-tithing 

20 Reasons You Should Stop Tithing

Among pastors there is a terrible abuse of using law tithing to place the church back under the condemnation of the law. This must be stopped (Titus 1:11). Jesus taught the church of Paul’s dispensation a better way of giving without the law. Below are some reasons you should stop law tithing.

Download this List: PDF

1. We are not under the law of tithing
   Tithing was part of the law. We are no longer under it. (Rom 6:14)
2. The law of tithing is weak
   A required tithe does not change the heart or the action. (Mat 23:23, Gal 4:9, Rom 8:3)
3. The law tithe is beggarly
   Law tithing always requests more. It is not a gift. It is merely fulfilling an obligation (Gal 4:9)
4. The church is not God’s covenant people
   The old and new covenants were made with Israel and Judah and so the requirements were never intended for Gentiles (Heb 8:8). Gentiles could be blessed by honoring Israel, and worshipping Israel’s God.
5. There is no Levitical priesthood today
   The most popular tithe today is the tithe that went to the Levitical priesthood (Num 18:21). There is no Levitical priesthood today.
6. The pastor does not replace the priest
   Preachers and teachers in the body of Christ church are not priests. Christ is the only mediator (1 Tim 2:5).
7. We do not inherit Israel’s land
   The tithe given to the Levites was because they had no land inheritance (Numbers 18:21).
8. There are no more temple sacrifices
   Since Christ paid it all there is no need to pay (tithe) someone else to do this service.
9. The local church does not replace the temple
   Know ye not that you are the temple of God not your building! ( 1 Cor 3:16)
10. The church does not observe required feast day celebrations
    It was three times a year in Deut 16:16. At certain feast days is where the tithes would be offered. One tithe even allowed you to stay home and spend it on what you desired (Deut 14:26).
11. Law tithing requirements were greater than 10 percent
    Deut 14:28 is one example of the tithe on the increase every 3 years that was above the regular Levitical tithe. There are other required offerings also according to Mal 3:9.
12. Physical blessings are no longer granted
    The law tithe taught physical blessings to Israel from God for tithing (Mal 3:10). Without a covenant with God, a priesthood, a promise, or a temple tithing for profit will not work.
13. Christ has given the church all spiritual blessings
    Those blessings are in heavenly places in Christ (Eph 1:3)
14. God provides all our needs without tithing
    Phil 4:19 says your needs are supplied according to his riches in glory in Christ. What you need is not physical it is spiritual.
15. Law tithing obligates the doer to the entire law – Gal 5:3, James 2:10
16. Peace with God is attained without tithing - Romans 5:1
17. We work to provide for our needs in this dispensation
    Paul makes it clear that if we don’t work we don’t eat (2 Thess 3:10). Mat 6:11 and Mal 3:10 are not effective today. If we do not provide for our own today we are “worse than an infidel (1 Tim 5:8)
18. The tithe was required
    Giving today is not “of necessity” (2 Cor 9:7). This is an important distinction between generosity and obligation.
19. The law tithe places you under a curse
    If you do not continue tithing then you can be cursed (Gal 3:10)
20. Christ has redeemed you from the law of tithing
    Law tithing represents ignorance or negligence of Christ’s cross (Gal 3:13, 1 Cor 1:17, Gal 2:21).

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. ” – Gal 2:21

Editor’s note:
This resource is not intended to dissuade giving generously to the Lord’s causes. God loves generosity as a reflection of your thanksgiving to Him. While this resource explains why Paul’s doctrine teaches you to stop law tithing, God does not teach lesser generosity. 

“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” – 2 Cor 9:7

Since I am a "Stammite"...(Romans 10:9-13)

Since I have been accused of being a "Hyper Diaper Stammite" because of my position on Romans 10:1-13, I thought I would share what Cornelius Stam actually did believe about Romans 10.

From Commentary on The Epistles of Paul to The Romans by Cornelius Stam pages 213-215,

Copyright, 1984 BEREAN LITERATURE FOUNDATION 7609 W. Belmont Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60635 

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. "For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. 

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

-Rom. 10:9-13

In these sublime words the Apostle Paul sets forth God's simple plan of salvation in this "dispensation of the grace of God." This, he says, is "the word of faith, which we preach." How grateful we should be that both Jews and Gentiles are included in this program while God's blessings to Israel as a nation

are being held in abeyance!

The alarming extent to which the Church has departed from Paul's "gospel of the grace of God," however, is evidenced by the fact that today even many Fundamentalists, who claim to preach "the word of faith," have introduced into the very words of Paul in Vers. 9-11 the element of meritorious works.

How often babes in Christ are urged to get to their feet in public testimony on the basis of these words! They are reminded that, in addition to believing, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth... thou shalt be saved" (Rom. 10:9).

Frequently Christian workers, not rightly dividing the Word of truth, support this argument by an appeal to the words of our Lord in Matt. 10:32,33:

“Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. "But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven."

And thus the element of meritorious works is injected into "the word of faith, which we preach." Newborn babes in Christ are given to feel that a heart faith is not enough to make them secure; that not until they have risen in public testimony is their salvation fully confirmed.

While few of our leading Fundamentalists would stand by any explicit statement to that effect, we dare say that most of them in their comments on these verses give the impression that this is so.

But what, then, does the Apostle mean by these words? Does he not plainly say, "If thou shalt confess... thou shalt be saved"? Yes, but here again, as with so many other passages of Scripture, a traditional meaning has been super-imposed upon the actual words of God.

What does the English word "confess" mean? Simply to "acknowledge," to"admit." And this is exactly what the original Greek word means too, nor does Rom. 10:9,10 say anything about confessing before men.

The trouble is that the idea of confession has been changed to profession-even public profession-and multitudes have followed the tradition of the fathers instead of examining the Word to see what it actually says. Thus "the word of faith" has been perverted.

But, it may be argued, does not the Apostle clearly say, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth... thou shalt be saved"? Indeed he does, and he adds, "and shalt believe in thine heart."

Let us consider this thoughtfully. Is it with the physical organ which pumps blood into our veins that we believe in Christ as our Savior? No! All admit that this is merely a figure of speech; that somehow the heart is associated with believing. Yet some would insist that it is with the physical mouth that we must confess in order to be saved. Can mutes then not be saved? And what does the Apostle mean in Acts 28:27, where he quotes Isaiah's words: "And their eyes have they closed."

Must we not see that the heart and mouth in Romans 10 are both used symbolically? While believing is naturally associated with the heart, confessing is naturally associated with the mouth.

If indeed the Apostle meant that with the physical mouth public "profession" must be made for salvation, then salvation is not by faith alone after all, but by faith plus works. If, not only before men, but before God as well, a question mark is placed after the name of the believer who has not testified before men, then most assuredly, salvation is not "the word of faith, which we preach."

The Apostle says that we must confess and believe to be saved. This is different, and here quite naturally the heart and mouth become symbolically significant.

As if anticipating the misinterpretation of his words, the Spirit-inspired Apostle continues:

"For the Scripture saith, Whosoever BELIEVETH on Him shall note ashamed" (Ver. 11).

"For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Ver. 13).

This is "the word of faith, which we preach."

It is when the sinner comes to the end of himself and confesses, acknowledges that Jesus is Lord, and believes in Him as the risen, living Savior, that he is saved. Any work of righteousness he might add for salvation would be useless, for salvation is "by grace... through faith... not of works" (Eph. 2:8,9). And so:

“With the heart man BELIEVETH" (Ver. 10).

"With the mouth CONFESSION is made" (Ver. 10).

"For whosoever BELIEVETH on Him shall not be ashamed" (Ver. 11).

"For ... whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Ver. 13).

Years ago a Christian woman kept urging her unsaved husband to attend large Saturday night evangelistic services. He went, week after week, to please her. It seemed to her, after a time, however, that he was under deep conviction, so as they walked home together she asked him, "Dear, why didn't you go forward tonight?" He replied, "I guess I'm just a coward. I didn't have the courage to get up out of my seat and go forward. Maybe next week." But is salvation, then, by courage or by faith? by some human effort, or by trusting in the finished work of Christ? Yet this man and his wife had associated being saved with going forward in a gospel meeting, and there are multitudes like them.

We do not for a moment mean to minimize the importance of Christian testimony. Only, we would not frighten God's dear children into witnessing for Him. We would not cast doubt upon their salvation just because they have not had the courage to bear public testimony, nor give them to feet that salvation is incomplete without human works. Some of the finest people-and the best Christians-are very retiring, and find it difficult to ever express themselves publicly. Above all, we would not adulterate the message of grace, or alter the written Word of God.”

Commentary on The Epistles of Paul to The Romans by Cornelius Stam pages 213-215,

Copyright, 1984 BEREAN LITERATURE FOUNDATION

7609 W. Belmont Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60635

Abraham's salvation and dispensationalism

How was Abraham saved? How do you reconcile Romans 4 with James 2?

The Bible teaches that Abraham received imputed righteousness by faith in Genesis 15:4-6 and that he received justification in Geneses 22:10 with the offering up of Isaac. The offering up of Isaac is said to have "fulfilled" the statement "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (Jam. 2:23). James said that "faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect" (Jam. 2:22). If the Bible says what it means and means what it says, then Abraham was justified by faith, but by perfected faith. That is what the text says. The initial statement in Genesis 15:6 is something that had to be "fulfilled" and "made perfect". Justification has always been by faith, but in the Old Testament and the Gospel of the Kingdom justification was by the faith of man and not the faith of Christ. Man's faith can "draw back" (Heb. 10:39), be "weak" (Rom. 4:19), be "wavering" (Jam. 1:6), and it must be "tried" (1 Pet. 1:7). However, under Grace we are justified by the faith of Christ, which is already perfect and proven. Which is why we receive imputed righteousness and justification at the same time (Rom. 4:1-5:1, Acts 13:38-39). We which have believed on Christ are justified by the faith of Christ under Grace (Gal. 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Rom. 3:22, 1 Thes. 5:23-24, 2 Tim. 2:13, Eph. 3:12, Phil. 3:9). This spiritual blessing was not available to those before the cross (Gal. 3:22-23). Jesus Christ was obedient unto death, in full faith in the Father, and we are justified by His faith as members of His body (Eph. 5:30, 2 Tim. 2:13). Interestingly enough, the believers of the Gospel of the Kingdom are commanded to keep the faith of Jesus, His same faith of being obedient unto death (Rev. 14:12, Phil. 2:8, Heb. 4:15, 5:8-9). 

Some people (non dispensationalists) disregard James 2 as having anything to do with Abraham's salvation and they teach that it is referring to "justification before men" and how it takes faith plus works to help our fellow man. I am sure that everyone agrees that we should help people and that faith alone will not help feed/clothe our friends, only our good works will help them in that regard. But the issue is that James 2 is not just about helping people. James 2:14 asks IF faith can "SAVE" a man, shifting the context to justification and salvation. I don't see where the Bible teaches that we are to be justified before men, "And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." (Luke 16:15) When James asks "what doth it profit" the context is how will it profit the person, not the brethren...What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Jam. 2:14)

--Eli Caldwell

Reply to a Post Tribber: Mark 13:37 "I say unto ALL"?

My reply to a post-tribber who insisted that "all" in Mark 13:37 proves that the Church the Body of Christ is going to be in Daniel's 70th Week.

"The "crowd" that we have been talking about was Peter, James, John and Andrew.

Mark 13:3-4 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Therefore when He says in Mark 13:37, "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." He means everybody in that generation and not just those 4 people.

Here is the deal: I take the "all" of verse 37 to be referring to the "generation" of verse 30 in contrast with the 4 man private meeting of verses 3-4. "This generation" is the CONTEXT of the "all". However, your private interpretation is that Jesus was not just speaking to the generation but that He was speaking to every single person that ever lived after He spoke those words. Well guess what? "every single person that ever lived after He spoke those words" IS NOT THE CONTEXT, the "generation" is!

Therefore I maintain the position that Christ said that those 4 men present would "see these things come to pass" and that He also said that that generation would not pass until all those things were fulfilled.

Mark 13:
[29] So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
[30] Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Therefore, my former statement is still valid...

What Christ said unto ALL was "the gospel of the kingdom" to "all nations" in Matt. 24:13-14 through the end of the chapter. I suppose you take "all" to mean everybody everywhere under any dispensation (revelation/rules) throughout all eternity? That is silly. The dispensational issue is that Christ spoke AGAIN after Matthew 24 and revealed the Dispensation of Grace as found in Ephesians 3:1-9 and the Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24, Gal. 1:11-12, 2:2, 2:7-8, Rom. 2:16, 16:25, 2 Tim. 2:8). Matthew 24 obviously got POSTPONED or else Jesus lied when He said... "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt. 24:34) "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." (Mark 13:30) "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." (Luke 21:32) Jesus said that all those things would be fulfilled before that generation passed. He said that the His disciples would see those things happen (Mark 13:3-4). He said that those who pierced Him would see Him coming (Matt. 26:64, Mark 14:62, Rev. 1:3, 1:7). With that being said, there are three options as to what this means...

A.) Christ lied

B.) The Son of Perdition did come and sit in the Holy Place, fulfilled the book of Daniel, and Christ did come and rapture the surviving believers, and He did judge the nations (Matt. chapters 24-25) and we are presently in His Kingdom.

C.) The events of Matthew 24 got POSTPONED by the Mystery Dispensation of Grace.

In light of the Scriptures, I believe option C.) is what the Bible teaches. See Romans 11....the blindness and fall of Israel was revealed to the apostle Paul and the coming of Christ to Israel has been postponed until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Hoss Vs "Eternal Gospel" on "Dispensationalism Debunked"

Discussion from "Dispensationalism Debunked" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iILf2UEKGIY

Hoss Cartwright: "Old Testament salvation was clearly by works with faith (Rom. 2:13, 10:5), of course salvation today under Grace is "no more of works" (Rom. 6:14, 11:6). "

Eternal Gospel: "If OT salvation was by works, then why does Romans 4:2 say explicitly that Abraham was saved by faith "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Then it goes on to say David was saved by faith in Romans 4:6. If you believe the OT saints were saved by works, then you are saying it is possible to be saved by works.....thus Jesus death was totally unnecessary. I mean why do we need a savior if we can save ourselves through following the law? Speaking of which, this verse comes to mind.: Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Hoss Cartwright: "Thank you for the reply....I encourage you to read the verses I cited and the Scriptures given in the link above. Salvation was clearly by the faith of man plus works in the OT while salvation under Grace is by faith without works. The Law's animal sacrifices did not redeem anyone, they just covered the sins until Christ's death on Calvary (Heb. 10:1-4). The sacrifices were said to make atonement for souls (Exod. 29:36, 30:15, etc.). Nobody had their sins cleared under the Old Testament (Ezek. 34:7), they were only covered until the cross when Christ would offer Himself as a Lamb. I don't know of anyone who believes that justification ever was by keeping the Law. The Pharisees kept the Law, Saul of Tarsus kept the Law, but none of them ever got saved until they put their faith in Christ. What some Dispensationalists (like myself) believe is that salvation in the OT was by the faith of man, not by the faith of Christ as we have under Grace. Romans 4:1-5 tells us that Abraham received imputed righteousness by faith in God's promise to give him a son, James 2:14-26 says that Abraham received justification by making his faith perfect by works. That was in the Old Testament, imputed righteousness was given by faith and justification was given by faith plus works. Read it and see, James 2:14-26. And don't say that James 2 is referring to justification before men, the text says no such thing. Jesus also preached against those who tried to be justified before men in Luke 16:15. Besides that, the context of James 2:15-26 is salvation according to verse 14. Under Grace imputed righteousness and justification is given at the same time upon faith in Christ (Rom. 4:23-5:1) Romans 2:13 plainly says "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 10:5 says "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." Paul contrasted Old Testament righteousness of the Law with the righteousness of faith in Romans 10:5-6. Paul went on in Romans to say (in the context of the salvation of the Jews) in Romans 11:6 that "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Notice that he said it is "no more" of works, which means that it had been of works previously. David "DESCRIBED the blessedness" of salvation by grace through faith without works, it does not say that he experienced salvation without works. Salvation by the sufferings of Christ was not understood or preached in the OT, but it was prophesied by the prophets. Peter says that the Spirit that was in them did testify of it, but that it was revealed THAT NOT UNTO THEMSELVES, but unto US they did minister the things which are NOW reported. 

1 Peter 1: 
[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 
[11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 
[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 

According to Peter, the OT prophets did not understand their prophecies about the sufferings of Christ but that they were for our benefit. The important thing is to understand that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ's shed blood without works NOW (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Rom. 3:19-27, 4:1-5, Eph. 1:13)."

Eternal Gospel: "Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 

The prophets all gave witness to the fact that salvation was by faith in the messiah (Christ). They may not have understood it all, just as we don't understand all of Revelation, because it is in the future. But they all gave witness to this same salvation. Romans 2 is building the case for the conclusion in Romans 3, that no one has ever kept the law and we all come short. 

You can't base any theology on Romans 2 without reading Romans 3 and 4, because they are building on each other. Romans 2 demonstrates that people that say they keep the law are actually not keeping the law, as it also says in James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." And as far as James 2 goes, if you are saying that Abraham's works were necessary in the sight of God, that is a direct contradiction of Romans 4. So either the Bible is contradicting itself, or else James 2 is not saying that Abraham was made perfect by works. His faith was made perfect by works in that it profited others, which is what the whole chapter is talking about. We now have that picture of Christ in the Bible lived out by Abraham. It is profitable for us. Just like our faith is dead if we do nothing for God, because it's not doing anything for God. However it is still enough to save us, according to Romans 4. The way most people interpret James 2 it directly contradicts Romans 4...and no surprise because interpretting James 2 to mean our works are necessary for salvation puffs up man's pride and makes people feel like they are doing it themselves. 'Im sorry but I have to agree with Pastor Anderson. If you watch this video he directly refutes the whole dispensational belief system. 

If you read John 3, Jesus is talking to someone who was alive before Christ died and marvelling that he is a master of Israel and doesn't know about being born again. Basically implying that he should know about it. Then Jesus goes on to tell him how whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life, in that famous passage in John 3:16. He is talking directly to someone who is alive before Jesus had died. He is also chastising him for not knowing about it..... doesn't that tell you that Nicodemus should have known about salvation by faith?"


HOSS CARTWRIGHT: "Agreed, salvation has always been based on faith in the LORD (Jesus Christ). However, the Bible makes it clear that the faith of man has to be perfected by works. So you think that James 2 is telling us to justify ourselves before men? The context is salvation (James 2:14), is that salvation before men too? Jesus said NOT to try and justify yourself before men. How did Abraham offering up Isaac benefit anyone? God was the only one who saw what happened, there were no other men around to see it. James is writing to the 12 tribes of Israel and prophetically to Jews in the Last Days (James 1:1, 5:3). The book of James is not written about the Body of Christ or the Dispensation of Grace. You do realize that believers of the Gospel of the Kingdom (believers in the Gospels and Daniel's 70th Week) do not get their sins taken away until the Second Advent don't you? It is at the Second Coming of Christ that Kingdom Gospel believers  will have their sins taken away (Heb. 3:14, 8:8-12, Acts 3:19-21,  Rom. 11:25-27, and 1 Pet. 1:5-9). This is according to Old Testament prophecy such as Zech. 3:9, 8:8, Isa. 1:27, 4:4, 25:9, 27:9, 54:13-14, 59:20, 60:21, Jer. 30:17, 31:31-34, 32:37-42, 33:8, Ezek. 36:24-33, Hos. 2:23, Deut. 30:6, and Joel 3:20-21. The Second Coming is when Christ told the 12 apostles that they would inherit everlasting life (Matt. 19:28-19) and that is what Peter taught (Acts 3:19-21, 1 Pet. 1:5-9). Though this is not true under the Dispensation of Grace (Rom. 6:4, Eph. 3:2). We under grace are now justified by Christ's blood and have now received the atonement (Rom. 5:9-11), our sins are already gone (Col. 2:11). 

How could you say that salvation was by grace through faith without works in the Gospels when 

1.) John the Baptist told people to bring forth good fruits to escape the wrath to come or else they would be cast into the fire (Matt. 3:7-10). 

2.) Jesus said that if you called your brother a fool then you would be in danger of hell fire (Matt. 5:22). 

3.) Jesus gave works required to be the children of God (Matt .5:44-45). 

4.) Jesus told the disciples many times that if they did not forgive men of their trespasses, then the Father would not forgive them (Matt. 5:12-15, 18:21-35). 

5.) Jesus said that you have to hear His sayings and do them in order to be saved (Matt. 5:21-24). 

6.) Jesus said that those who do not bring forth good fruit are hewn down and cast into the fire (Matt. 7:19). 

7.) Jesus said that He would reward everyman according to his works (Matt. 16:27). The "reward" in the context is life after death (16:24-26). 

8.) In Matthew 19:16-30 Jesus told a man to keep the commandments and sell all that he had in order to have eternal life. He then said it was impossible for a rich man to be saved. Notice also that the 12 apostles would inherit everlasting life at the Second Advent. Salvation for believing Israel in past and future dispensations is set at the Second Coming, not the cross. (see the references given above) 

 9.) Matthew 24:42-51 and 25:30 state very clearly that the unprofitable servants will be cast into hell. 

10.) Notice that the reason Jesus will let the Gentile nations into the Kingdom after Daniel's 70th Week is because of their WORKS (taking care of the Lord's brethren) in Matthew 25:34-46. 

 Those are just ten examples from 1 book. There are many others in the other Gospels and all the other non-Pauline books. I did not "interpret" those passages, I just repeated what they said. It is wrong to "interpret" the Bible (2 Pet. 1:20). Now as for the Gospel of John, the book of proof texts for all non-dispensationalists, it does not teach what you say it teaches. The new birth is specifically for Israel as Jesus hinted (John 3:10). Israel was born of God in the OT (Exod. 4:22) and He will beget them again at the Second Advent (1 Pet. 1:3, Isa. 66:8). Under Grace believers are "adopted" (Rom. 8:15, Gal. 4:5-6). NOT "born again" in the sense of John 3, though the principal has application for today. Nobody in the Gospel of John (which is written in the Old Testament) is or was "born again" until chapter 20 when Jesus breathed on the 11 apostles and they received the Holy Ghost. John 1:11-13 makes it clear that they were not sons of God instantly, but they were given the power to "become" the sons of God (1:12).....they did not receive the new birth until the Holy Ghost was given. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:38-39) Notice that Jesus said that He would give eternal life to the sheep (which is not the Gentiles--Matt. 15:24-26) that FOLLOWED Him. 

John 10: 
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 

Under the Gospel of the Kingdom, they had to hear the word of God, follow it, and then they got eternal life. Now the question is, how did they "follow" Christ? We find that out by looking in Matthew 19 verses 21 and 28. Here is the whole passage.... 

Matthew 19: 
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? [21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 
[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 
[24] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 
[25] When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 
[26] But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. 
[27] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 
[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. [30] But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. 

Jesus gave WORKS as requirements for salvation, and that salvation was something that the apostles would inherit at the Second Coming according to verses 28-29 which matches what Peter preached to Israel in Acts 3:19-21 and what Paul said about Israel in Romans 11:25-27. Jesus repeated this teaching in John 12:25-26 "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour." Notice that it is those who hate their life in this world that shall keep it unto life eternal....it also references following Christ SERVING Him. They are the ones that get eternal life according to John 10:27-28. Following Christ is clearly a work and a process. 

Look up all the references to following Christ and see for yourself. http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2015/04/requirements-for-salvation-in-different.html http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2015/09/looking-forward-to-cross.html 

 If you really do think that the Gospels are directly written about the Dispensation of Grace and the Church the Body of Christ, why don't you look at these Scripture references at this link: 

http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2015/04/do-you-really-follow-jesus.html 

Thank you for the questions and advice. I have studied the issue of whether or not salvation has always been by grace through faith without works and I have not seen the evidence of it anywhere. I am still open to the possibility though and I have just read a book on the subject."


ETERNAL GOSPEL: "James 2 is not telling you to justify yourself before men in the same way Jesus was. James 2 says "What doth it profit" Our faith doesn't profit anyone if we don't do any works with it. If a man who is hungry comes up to me and I say "Be filled." it does nothing. There is a spiritual application there as well. If I say "God Bless You" to an unbeliever and don't give them the gospel (the Great Commission)...it profits that person nothing. Most people believe there is a God, few people know the gospel or believe it. That's what that whole chapter is teaching. And Abraham was justified in the sense we could see that his faith was genuine. Otherwise, if you understand it to mean that Abraham was justified before God-it would be a DIRECT CONTRADICTION to Romans 4:2-3. 

How do you explain that? And if you think no one was born again until John 20, how come Jesus told Nicodemus "ye must be born again" in John 3? This was addressed in this sermon, maybe you should watch it because those types of arguments are clearly addressed. But here are the answers to your points: 

1- John was talking to the Pharisees and told them to "bring forth fruits meet for repentance". In other words demonstrate that you have really changed your minds (that's what repentance means)--because the Pharisees were a bunch of hypocrites and liars, and it's very likely they were there for ulterior motives...just like when they flattered Jesus in Matthew 22 and pretended to be sincere in asking about paying taxes. 

2-. The context of the verse is being angry with your brother WITHOUT A CAUSE. Thus calling someone a fool with no cause is a grave matter. That verse does not say that is a sin that will send you to hell in every case....Jesus called the Pharisees fools several times. 

3- The Bible is full of works that we SHOULD do. But there is only one thing we MUST do to be saved...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Those are all things we should do, and that is how we should try to live. 

4- This verse is misconstrued to mean they have no forgiveness in the sense that Jesus blood did not cover that sin. However, that understanding would directly contradict Matthew 12:31 where Jesus said ALL manner of sin shall be forgiven men (except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). No, what this verse is saying is that if you dont forgive others when they trespass against you, God is going to hold you accountable for all of your sins IN THIS LIFE....and you will start being punished for every thing you do wrong - he'll hold you to that same standard you are holding others to. Yikes! Not something I want. 

5- Nothing in Matthew 5:21-24 says anything about what you said it did. The only thing close is Matthew 5:20 where it says "That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees ye shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven". We have Christ's righteousness through faith (Php. 3:9), thus our righteousness does exceed that of the Pharisees. 

 6- Jesus said EVERY TREE that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. Not every person is a tree. A tree is somewhere people go to get food from--a prophet (or preacher). A preacher who teaches false doctrine is hopelessly lost in most cases....this is echoed in 2 Peter and in Jude. You will not see the Pope repent and trust Christ tomorrow....nor will you see Billy Graham repent and say everyone must believe in Christ to be saved....nor will you see any other popular "Christian" teacher suddenly start teaching salvation by faith alone....because they would lose all of their money and fame. They are children of the devil headed for hell...there is no hope for them (in most cases). 

7- Have you not heard of the judgment seat of Christ? (2 Corinthians 5) Salvation is NOT a reward...however, we will receive and/or lose rewards based on what we are doing for Jesus Christ. If we go out and win 100 people to Christ, the Bible says we will rule over 100 cities. Our authority in heaven is totally works based. Most people never win a single person to Christ in their entire life....thus most will have ZERO authority. At least they are not in hell, though! 

8-The story of the rich young ruler is often misinterpreted. In Romans 2, it teaches that if you keep all the commandments you will be saved. Then in Romans 3 it goes on to say NO ONE has ever kept all the commandments and NO ONE is righteous. Jesus was simply pointing out that the young ruler, who thought he had kept all the commandments since his youth, failed on commandment number one. He basically demonstrated that money was his God, a violation of the first commandment. And it is true that it is HARD for a rich man to be saved....but with God all things are possible. Go soul winning in a rich neighborhood some time (like I have)....virtually no one will listen to you. 

10- If you interpret this to teach works salvation, you are contradicting hundreds of other scriptures. Most people who are saved at some point in their Christian lives do good works. And unbelievers can do no good works at all, because without faith it is impossible to please God. Thus it can easily be understood in that light. 

Consider the above, even if you don't agree, they are all valid interpretations....and then ask...are the above scriptures being wrested by men to teach some kind of "system of theology" rather than just being understood in light of the rest of the Bible?"

Hoss Cartwright: "Thank you for the further thoughts. And just a note to anyone who may read these comments, I am not saying that I believe works are required for salvation under Grace, only under the Law and the Gospel of the Kingdom. I am a staunch believer and defender of "easy believism" and "once saved always saved" (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Eph. 1:13, Acts 13:38-39).

I am sure that everyone agrees that we should help people and that faith alone will not help feed/clothe our friends, only our good works will help them in that regard. But the issue is that James 2 is not just about helping people. James 2:14 asks IF faith can "SAVE" a man, shifting the context to justification and salvation. I don't see where the Bible teaches that we are to be justified before men, "And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." (Luke 16:15) When James asks "what doth it profit" the context is how will it profit the person, not the brethren...What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Jam. 2:14)

The Bible teaches that Abraham received imputed righteousness by faith in Genesis 15:4-6 and that he received justification in Geneses 22:10 with the offering up of Isaac. The offering up of Isaac is said to have "fulfilled" the statement "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (Jam. 2:23). James said that "faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect" (Jam. 2:22). If the Bible says what it means and means what it says, then Abraham was justified by faith, but by perfected faith. That is what the text says. The initial statement in Genesis 15:6 is something that had to be "fulfilled" and "made perfect". Justification has always been by faith, but in the Old Testament and the Gospel of the Kingdom justification was by the faith of man and not the faith of Christ. Man's faith can "draw back" (Heb. 10:39), be "weak" (Rom. 4:19), be "wavering" (Jam. 1:6), and it must be "tried" (1 Pet. 1:7). However, under Grace we are justified by the faith of Christ, which is already perfect and proven. Which is why we receive imputed righteousness and justification at the same time (Rom. 4:1-5:1, Acts 13:38-39). We which have believed on Christ are justified by the faith of Christ under Grace (Gal. 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Rom. 3:22, 1 Thes. 5:23-24, 2 Tim. 2:13). This spiritual blessing was not available to those before the cross (Gal. 3:22-23). Jesus Christ was obedient unto death, in full faith in the Father, and we are justified by His faith as members of His body (Eph. 5:30, 2 Tim. 2:13). Interestingly enough, the believers of the Gospel of the Kingdom are commanded to keep the faith of Jesus, His same faith of being obedient unto death (Rev. 14:12, Phil. 2:8, Heb. 4:15, 5:8-9). 

You ask about the "born again" statement in John 3. I should probably go ahead and tell you that most dispensational believers do not consider being "born again" something that is entirely applicable to the Dispensation of Grace. We believe that the Bible teaches that Israel was God's firstborn under the Old Covenant (Exod. 4:22, Deut. 14:1-2, 32:18, Hos. 11:1, Isa. 1:2, 44:1-2, 46:3). We believe that the Bible teaches that the nation of Israel will be born again under the New Covenant (Isa. 44:1-4, 66:8). What Christ said in John 3 teaches this as well, notice that it says Nicodemus was a "ruler of the Jews" in verse 1 and then in verse 7 Jesus said "YE must be born again". Who is the "ye" (plural)? According to the context it is Israel, "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of THE JEWS: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, WE know that thou art a teacher come from God....Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE must be born again." (John 3:1-3, 7).  Further proof that Jesus was speaking of the nation of Israel is that He said in John 3:10, "Art thou a master of ISRAEL, and knowest not these things?" Under Grace, as members of the Body of Christ, we are said to be "adopted" but not "born again" (Rom. 8:15, Gal. 4:5). Being adopted is not the same thing as being born again. But this does not mean that we cannot apply the passage in John to us, it does have a similar application since we are new creatures in Christ and regenerated in Him, which is similar to being born again (Gal. 6:15, 2 Cor. 5:17). Most dispensationalists (including myself) will use John 3 as application, just not for the literal doctrinal meaning. 

Anyway, what you asked was "if you think no one was born again until John 20, how come Jesus told Nicodemus "ye must be born again" in John 3?". The reason dispensational believers teach that nobody was born again until the Holy Spirit was given is because without the Holy Spirit, there is no new birth (John 3:5). The Gospel of John is an actual book with 21 chapters, 879 verses, and 19,099 words. We cannot just jump into chapter 3 and ignore the rest of the book (not that you did this). We need to consider John 3 within the context of the book. John already discussed the new birth and he mentions the Holy Spirit again in a few chapters. Here is the first time John mentioned the new birth, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13). Notice that those that believed on Christ did not become the sons of God, they were given the power to BECOME the sons of God. It was not an instantaneous thing. Also, note in John 3 that Jesus did not command anyone to be born again, He just said that it was something they must do. Being born again requires the Holy Spirit in the believer (John 3:5), and He was not given to those that believe until the Lord was glorified. Notice the following references to the Holy Ghost's coming as future and not yet in the believers.

John 7:
[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

As for the 10 points I mentioned on the Gospel of the Kingdom requiring works, I still stand by them. I believe that those are what the Bible plainly teaches. Here are some brief responses to your concerns:

1.)--I agree with your comment, but the text still says that those who do not gring forth the good fruits meet for repentance are hewn down and cast into the fire and he asks them how they will escape the wrath to come. (Matt. 3:7-12)

2.)--The text says in Mathew 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." If words mean anything, those under the Gospel of the Kingdom who call their brother a "fool" will be in danger of hell fire. That is what it says.

3.)-- I agree that there are good works we should do, but the text of Matthew 5:44-45 says "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven". These are works for salvation if the words mean what they say.

4.)--I don't understand what you are saying. The passage says that you must forgive others of their trespasses in order for the Lord to forgive you of your trespasses. It doesn't say anything about God punishing saved people, it says He will not forgive them of their trespasses.This teaching is repeated in
(Matt. 6:12-15, 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26, Luke 6:37, 11:4). This is much different than the doctrine of forgiveness under Grace (compare with Eph. 4:32, Col. 3:13). 

5.)--Sorry, I gave the wrong references. I meant Matthew 7:19-24.

6.)--I think I already addressed this, similar to number 1.

7.)--Yes I know about the Judgement Seat of Christ, and I anticipated that kind of response which is why I specifically stated that "The "reward" in the context is life after death (16:24-26)." It says, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." 

8.)--You said "Jesus was simply pointing out that the young ruler, who thought he had kept all the commandments since his youth, failed on commandment number one. He basically demonstrated that money was his God, a violation of the first commandment. And it is true that it is HARD for a rich man to be saved....but with God all things are possible." However, the text says that Jesus was answering the question "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Jesus did not say that salvation was by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast, rather He said "keep the commandments" and "sell all that thou hast and follow me". I take the text for what it says, I do not believe there is any need to "interpret" it (2 Pet. 1:20). We know that Jesus meant what He said because He told the disciples that because they had sold all that they had and followed Him that they would "inherit everlasting life" (Matt. 19:27-28). Jesus commanded the believers of the Gospel of the Kingdom to sell all that they had (Matt. 6:19-34, 8:20, 10:8-10, 13:44-46, 19:16-24, Mark 6:7-9, 10:17-23, Luke 3:8-11, 9:1-4, 12:15-34, Acts 2:44-45, 3:1-6, 4:32-37, 5:1-11).

9.)--I think that you forgot to answer this one. Matthew 24:42-51 and 25:30 state very clearly that the unprofitable servants will be cast into hell. 

10.)--I don't think that I 'interpreted" the passage, I just repeated what it said. Jesus tells the lost nations that they will go to hell for not taking care of His brethren and He tells the saved nations that they will enter the Kingdom because they did take care of His brethren. That is what the text says, no "interpretation" (Matt. 25:31-46).

Thank you again for the advice and sharing your position. "

Baptist/Catholic Confessional Exposed

The Baptist/Catholic Confessional Exposed......



 



Baptists and Roman Catholics teach that a "saved" person must confess his sins everyday (daily) in order to have "fellowship" with God. If the "saved" person does not do this, then he is "out of fellowship with God". And of course, anyone who dies not having fellowship with God goes to hell. Check any Catholic salvation book/article/video and any Baptist "gospel" tracts or commentary on 1 John.  

Defining "fellowship": Companionship; society; consort; mutual association of persons on equal and friendly terms; familiar intercourse. (Webster's 1828 Dictionary)

In other words, according to the Baptists and Catholics, a "saved" person does not have "companionship" or "association on friendly terms" with God UNLESS he "confesses his sins everyday". Baptists (such as Spurgeon, David Cloud, Roloff, Local Church Publishers, Jack Chick, etc) teach that one must "turn from his sins", "surrender his life to Christ", "leave sin", and promise God that he will "be true to Him the rest of your days" in order to be saved. See documentation here:

http://www.pmbclansing.org/home/salvation.htm

http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2015/10/baptist-false-gospel-david-cloud-lester.html

http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2015/10/baptist-false-gospel-surrender-your.html

Both the Baptists and the Catholics teach that you get saved through two or three sacraments, mainly Penance and Confession. [Though Catholics say you have a better chance of salvation through water baptism and the Baptists also teach that you become "complete in Christ" by water baptism] They teach that after you perform these initial sacraments (which saves you from your previous sins) that you must then continue to confess your sins daily for God to forgive you of your present and future sins. According to the Baptists and Catholics, a "saved" person does not have "companionship" or "association on friendly terms" with God UNLESS he "confesses his sins everyday".

Not long ago I visited a "Independent Fundamental Baptist" where my mom was visiting and the preacher preached a whole sermon on 1 John 1:9. Which says,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

And immediately after he read the verse he said "Now I don't believe that it is talking about forgiveness of sins really, it is talking about fellowship." Then he went on to talk about how we need to confess our sins daily or God will curse us and our children, using Malachi 2:1-3 as his next text.

This is all summed up as WORKS to get saved and WORKS to stay saved. That is complete heresy (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 3:19-27, 4:1-5:1, 11:6, Titus 3:4-7, Phil. 3:8-9, Gal. 2:16-3:28, etc.).

All believers are in fellowship with God no matter what they do after they get saved.....(all the Baptists, Roman Catholics, and "Church of Christ" just gasped when they read that)

1 Corinthians 1:
[4] I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
[5] That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
[6] Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
[7] So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[8] Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[9] God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Corinthian "church of God" that would be confirmed unto the end and were called to the fellowship of Jesus Christ when they got saved was

carnal (3:3-4)
heretical (11:19)
full of division (1:10, 3:4, 11:18)
proud of fornication (5:1-5)
judged of God by death and sickness (11:30-32)
not believing in the resurrection (15:12)
suing each other (6:1-2)

YET THEY WERE IN FELLOWSHIP WITH THE LORD SINCE THE DAY THEY GOT SAVED (1:1-9)

The ridiculous logic behind the Baptist/Catholic Confessional....

Who can remember every sin they have committed since they got saved? I know I can't.

Not only would you have to remember and confess every time you lie, cheat, steal fornicate, etc. BUT you would also have to remember every time that you have committed sins of the heart such as lust, covetousness, arrogance, hatred, pride, and on and on and on.

Romans 14:23 says "whatsoever is not of faith is sin". You need to remember and confess every time that you did anything without faith. Have you ever given someone a gospel tract, read your Bible, prayed, given money to a missionary, or done something "for God" just out of ritual instead of in faith? Also, have you ever confessed a sin to God out of ritual and not in faith? That was a sin...

James said "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (Jam. 4:17). You need to remember and confess every time you have known that you should have prayed, read your Bible, confessed, given time/money/effort to help someone, or any other good thing that you did not do.

If what the Baptists and Catholics say is true, then NO believer has ever had forgiveness of sins or fellowship with God and we are all headed for hell! As David said, are evils are INNUMERABLE and our iniquities are MORE THAN THE HAIRS OF OUR HEAD....it is impossible to know all of our sins, much less confess them!

"For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me." (Psalms 40:12)

Our forgiveness is in a PERSON, not a ritual work! Not only that, our forgiveness is complete the moment we get saved, we are forgiven of "all trespasses" instantaneously.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

[The Baptists think this says "In what we have redemption through confession, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of our works"]

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 3:13  Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

THEN WHAT IS FIRST JOHN 1:9 REFERRING TO?

1 John 1:
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I believe that 1 John 1:9 refers to the plan of salvation (Gospel of the Kingdom context). 1 John 1:9 is telling unforgiven sinners what to do to have forgiveness. Not that John is writing to unsaved people, but that he is going over the gospel and how they got out of "darkness" and into "God/light" (vs 5-7). Lost people must confess (to God) that they are sinners in order to be saved, though this is not referring to every individual sin that they have committed but only sins as a whole. Notice the following:

"we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life" (verse 2)

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us" (verse 3)

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you" (verse 5)

The context is the gospel, John shewing unto them eternal life. Further, in verses 5-7 John discusses how to get out of darkness and into the light (a reference to saved Vs lost).

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Compared to...

"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." (1 Thes. 5:4-5)

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" (Col. 1:12-13)

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor. 6:14)

"Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." (Acts 26:17-18)

"While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them." (John 12:36)

"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness." (John 12:46)

Believers are in the light, unbelievers are in darkness. That is the issue that John is discussing in 1 John, how to get out of darkness and into light. We are children of the light and walk in the light, and John says in verse 7 "if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." If you are a believer, than the blood of Christ has cleansed you from ALL sin. You do not have to be cleansed again and again and again, it is a ONE TIME cleansing (Eph. 4:32, Col. 2:13). Further notice chapter 2.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:12  I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Jesus Christ is the propitiation, advocate, and He is the reason that are sins are forgiven--not daily confession.

One objection to this view of 1 John 1:9 is that John used the word "we" when he said "if we confess our sins...". The logic behind that argument is that since John said "we" than he cannot be referring to unsaved people. However, I believe that he is using "we" in an editorial sense speaking of how they got saved, such as Paul did in Rom. 4:24 "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;" and also in Rom. 6:5, 6:8, 8:25, Gal. 5:25, etc. We know that John is speaking this way because of verse 3, "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us". 

Should believers confess their sins to God? Yes and no--it depends on what you mean by that.

Believers should confess/acknowledge their sins and pray that God will give them the strength to not continue in sin.

1 Corinthians 11:
[31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
[32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 

Romans 6:
[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

However, this by no means teaches that we have to struggle to remember and confess every single sin that we commit. As seen already, that would be impossible (Ps. 40:12). We certainly do not have to confess audibly to obtain forgiveness or fellowship with God, that is heretical and denies complete and instantaneous salvation by grace through faith.

It is worth pointing out that most Baptists and Catholics do not realize that 1 John is a prophetic book written to believers of the Gospel of the Kingdom in Daniel's 70th Week when the Son of Perdition is present (1 Jn. 2:13-14, 2:18, 5:18).

--Eli Caldwell