Hoss: Oh, I see.
Evans: Actually, you don't!
Hoss: Actually, that was referring to you letting me know what the debate was about.
Hoss: It is quite obvious just by a little Bible reading that there is a "mystical" church that we are "mystically" baptized into.
Evans: Nothing is obvious if is only found in a pontificated claim that is not supported by definitive scripture.
Hoss: I have no idea what "pontificated" means.
Hoss: This "mystical church" is called the "body of Christ" . . .
Evans: The term "mystical" church is not found in scripture, but the "body of Christ" is found. Only churches with locality are found in scripture, or else the church is used generically like the husband and the wife.
Hoss: I know that, "mystical church" is the term you have been using, notice the quotes. You think churches with locality are the only churches mentioned in scripture? I suppose you then believe that the one body (or also called "church") mentioned in Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Corinthians, and Romans is actually thousands of little bodies (or churches) made up of tithing, chicken eating, red neck Baptist??? (with me included in that) You mean there is not "one body"? There is only one body, but there are many members (1 Cor. 12, Col. 1-2, and Eph. 4). Is it not a bit arrogant to say that your church is the body of Christ? Dr. Reese (a church starting missionary) has created a bunch of bodies of Christ then hasn't he? What body was Paul in? He was not a member of one church but a traveling missionary. If I leave my church did I get cut off from the body of Christ?
Hoss: . . . and you get in it when you believe the gospel --not by any baptism whether it is by, with, or for anything. A "mystical baptism" . . .
Evans: No, you do NOT get into the body of Christ when you believe the gospel; rather you get IN CHRIST when you get saved by REPENTING and believing the gospel.
Hoss: What does "repent" mean? If someone is going to get saved they have to have a change of mind and decide that they will trust Christ instead of what they were previously trusting to takeaway sins.
Hoss: . . . (1 Cor. 12:13) is describing how we got in this "mystical" body of Christ (which also has the title "Church") but it is not saying when we got in this mystical body.
Evans: Unfortunately, you believe in the DUAL church and DUAL body theory in which you arbitrarily select which is which per your already self-conceived opinions. Still, this passage does not say how or when we get into this body. It only says what the enabling agency in regard to the baptism is that it is the enabling factor, (namely, By the Spirit of God. The same preposition BY is used in the dozen verses that precede verse thirteen as an enabler rather than a Baptizer. Again the Holy Spirit is never the Baptizer but is always the Element in any kind of Spirit baptism. Jesus is the Baptizer per Matthew 3:11.
Hoss: Well I am still doing better than you, you believe in thousands of bodies of Christ if each church building and its attendants is a body of Christ.
The Bible teaches in one spiritual body that has no Jew or Greek and where Christ is the Head. That is a "church" because it is a called out assembly of everyone Christ has saved since Acts 9, Paul being first (read 1 Tim. 1 on that). However, the members of that one body can assemble locally as a called out assembly thus creating a church. There is one spiritual church, but there are millions of earthly assemblies.
Hoss: Now I don't know what the Baptist say or have said....but here is a little King James Bible for you. (keep in mind that I am a M.A.D. Baptist, Also known as a "hyper" (taken from my most recent M.A.D. Baptist propaganda).
Evans: Yes, you are indeed MAD to carve up the Book of Acts that way, and it is Hyper, Hyper dispensationalism. That is why you refuse to be water baptized, but we can take that on in another sitting. But I hate to tell you, but you are not a Baptist in any historical sense. You are a modified Stamite and/or a Bullingerite.
Hoss: Well praise the Lord! If you are the definition of a good Baptist than I don't really care to be one! "Hyperdispensationalist is in the eye of the beholder. And actually, I don't like Bullenger or Stam. Both are Bible correctors, both are Yankees or from England, and I have never read or consulted any of there work.
Hoss: I may have been over emphasizing the baptism by the Spirit that puts us into the body of Christ. Paul says that we get in the body of Christ when we believed the gospel.
Evans: Welcome to the universal, mystical church club that entertains this false concept.
Hoss: Boloney.
Hoss: 1 Corinthians 12:13 is explaining how we get in the body, but it is not saying when we got in it. If you are trying to convince somebody when you got in the body of Christ and when the body of Christ began, this may be the best way to go and avoid the discussion of baptism with and by the Spirit.
Evans: You do well to advise your universal church brothers not to discuss it, considering the trouble they have got into trying to produce someone in the scriptures that was so baptized by the Holy Spirit.
Hoss: Boloney....again, are you a butcher/meatman?
Hoss: Ephesians 3: 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [7] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
There we see that the Gentiles were able to be put in the "same body" as Jews "by the gospel". Therefore believing the gospel puts someone in the body of Christ. Also notice verse 7 where Paul said he was made the minister of this gospel that puts people in the body.
Evans: “Able to be put” is the key phrase. Unfortunately, this passage does not say anyone was put into the same body BY the gospel. It says that they should be fellow heirs of the same body. That is the mystery; the the middle wall of partition has been broken down between them, and that the Gentiles are no more strangers and aliens. It says that both Jew and Gentile s are partakers of the same promises BY the gospel. Invisible Churchers have “BY” trouble.
Hoss: That is a lie, yes it does. Verse 6,
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (HOW?), and of the same body (HOW?), and partakers of his promise in Christ (HOW?) by the gospel
Yep...that's what I thought it said, BY THE GOSPEL! Are you sure you're a real doctor?
Hoss: Here is Paul's gospel and what we know about it.
1). This is what the gospel is.
1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1 Cor. 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Evans: That is all fine as far as it goes, but did Paul not preach anything else?
Hoss: Yes he did preach other things.
Rom. 4: 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness . . .
[22] And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (faith) [23] Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; [24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; [25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Evans: That is all fine too, but is that all Paul preached? How about the WHOLE COUNCIL OF GOD that he preached, which you folks do not?
What does that mean? I teach the whole Bible rightly divided (II Tim. 2:15)
Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Evans: Now that you wasted your time proving salvation by faith and what we agree upon, do you intend to prove anything else?
Hoss: Ummm...sure. You plan on contradicting scripture anymore?
Hoss: 2.) It does not include water baptism.
1 Cor. 1: 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. [18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Evans: The gospel is not water baptism nor does it include it, the Campbellites notwithstanding, but water baptism is a picture of the gospel, even the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins (Romans 6). Paul's mission was not to baptize; he was an evangelistic apostle that left the rest to the churches. Still, Paul did baptize some folks and gives the non-dispensational reason. John the Baptist baptized many and Jesus' disciples also baptized folks in their evangelistic missions, and Philip baptized the eunuch, despite Calvas' claims that only elders of the church are to baptize.
1 Cor 1:14 - 16 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
Hoss: I agree. Water baptism represent the gospel it accompanies. For us, that is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Though Peter and John did not baptize to represent the finished work of Christ because they did not even understand it. (Mark 8:31-32)
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
(John sent to baptize)Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(the twelve sent to baptize, also see Mark 16)
(John sent to baptize)Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(the twelve sent to baptize, also see Mark 16)
What do you make of that? Why were Peter and John sent to baptize but not Paul? "teach all nations" sounds kind of like evangelism to me. Why was Paul not sent to baptize but Peter and John were? How about that one, eh? Sort of makes you want to rightly divide....
Hoss: 3.) Finally, the gospel Paul preached was a new revelation, that just by believing on and trusting Christ and His finished work you could be saved (as seen in #1).
Gal. 1: 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Evans: It was not a new gospel; it was the same old gospel that the other disciples preached. Paul was not given a new revelation of the gospel, but he was taught by revelation rather than being taught by the others. That gospel began with John the Baptist preaching the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the WORLD and included repentance and faith for the remission of sins. The progressive revelation of that gospel to Paul was that it was based upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS (Paul revealed this basis in Corinthians). Water baptism and the gospel are the same from John until now except for additional information due to progressive revelation.
Mark 1:1 - 3 The BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Hoss: More baloney? Your on a role! You never see anyone else in the Bible preach what Paul taught....unless you read it in there yourself. Peter preached water buptism for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38). Paul taught otherwise. Paul and Peter did not agree on many things at the start. Read Acts 10, 11, 15, 16, and then the whole book of Galatians would do you good.
Didn't you know there is more than one gospel in the Bible? Are you sure your a real doctor? The gospels and early Acts record the gospel of the kingdom, that is Christ as the King of Israel and Son of God and if you don't believe, repent, get baptized, and sell all He is going to baptize you with fire! http://av1611studyblog.
If you don't own a Bible thus not having access to this information I will send you one, a King James of course.
Hoss 4.) Finally, if we believe that gospel which is the preaching of the cross, then we are "partakers" of that "one bread" which puts us into the "one body".
Eph. 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (the preaching of the cross)
Evans: While it is true that God hath reconciled Jew and Gentile in one body BY the cross rather than BY the Holy Spirit, it is also true that the body here is the actual bruised and bleeding physical body of Christ on the cross. Linking the bleeding body of Christ in 2:16 with the body (3:6) that Jew and Gentile are fellowheirs within amounts to mixing and matching of the worse sort. Instead, of the Jews having a separate congregational body for just them (the tabernacle and the temple and the synagogue and the church in the wilderness), now, Gentiles are included in the same local congregational body.
Hoss: GOOD GRIEF, MORE BALONEY! Do your homework Dr. ! Read the verse.
1 Cor. 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Who is the "one body"? The saved people. Why? "for we are all partakers of that one bread." referring to believing the "preaching of the cross".
Hoss: 1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
That is how we got in the body of Christ, BY THE GOSPEL (Eph. 3:6). The body of Christ could not have started at any other time or by any kind of baptism.....it is by the gospel which was given by revelation to Paul in Acts 9.
Evans: But it does not say that they got into the body of Christ by the gospel in Eph. 3:6
Yes it did....
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs (HOW?), and of the same body (HOW?), and partakers of his promise in Christ (HOW?) by the gospel
Hoss: Paul's gospel started with Paul in Acts 9 so that is when the body of Christ started.
Evans: But it does not say that the gospel started in Acts nine. The BEGINNING of the Gospel started in Mark 1 with John the Baptist's ministry. The gospel and the body of Christ are not the same nor do they have simultaneous beginnings.
Hoss: Nope, you missed it! Paul's gospel is not the kingdom gospel. http://av1611studyblog.
Hoss: Herb, if you don't do your homework before you come to class then you won't get a smiley face sticker. HELLO? Are you there? Knock-knock....bye-bye!
Hoss: You are mentally sick if you think that that is talking about a local anything. If you do the reading, you can obviously see that all Jews and Gentiles in this age are in one "mystical" body....not all in one local body.
Evans: I am mentally sick? I am not the one that is involved in these mystical hallucinations and intangible things that no one can see, hear, or feel. The Jews did not deal in mystical entities; they dealt in tangible entities when it can to their local congregations and local synagogues. Evidently, you do not believe in rising before the hoary head, since it was said in another dispensation.
Hoss: Come on Brother Herb, lay off the bottle! 2 Cor. 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)Hoss: See you in the funny papers, - Brother Hoss
Evans: Do you mean the funny papers of Stam, O'hair, Bullinger, Terry (Mclean) and the Pirates from which you get your material?
Hoss: I mean the Sunday comics...Garfield...Peanuts...
Matthew 3 in the brider version, translator Dr. Herb Evans.
[1] In those days came Herb the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same Herb had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
[7] But when he saw many of the hyperdispensationalist and non-Briders come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same Herb had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
[7] But when he saw many of the hyperdispensationalist and non-Briders come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Have you sold all that have? Have you drunk a bottle of Clorox? Are you sure the whole Bible is written TO you? (or do you just rightly divide when it is most convenient?)
Grace and Peace, (and I hope my sarcasm didn't offend you....much)
Brother Hoss
