Here is me refuting a study from a friend of mine on the water baptism
issue. This is no attack on him personally, just on the false baptist
doctrine of water baptism. His words in italics, my refute in bold
parenthesis. --Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
I have come to the conclusion that the "Berean" arguments for not baptizing in water are as weak as water. At first some of their points sound convincing, but they just don't hold up under real scriptural scrutiny. (Well we Bereans say the same thing about your Buptist position.)
Did water baptism cease for the present dispensation? Paul baptized in the present dispensation and he never said it would cease. Why didn't he baptize when he wrote his prison epistles? I doubt that he, as a prisoner, had the liberty to baptize. (Paul never told you to baptize and he told you to walk and be united in your calling which only includes "one faith" and "one baptism" and neither of that includes water baptism BUT ONLY the baptism by the Spirit through the faith of the operation of God according to Eph. 4:1-6, Col. 2:10-12, 1 Cor. 12:12-13. Water baptism was by sprinkling so YES he could have baptized in prison.)
Did he baptize in the Acts period to reach the Jews? (NOPE!) The unbelieving Jews rejected kingdom water baptism! (YEP!) How would water baptism impress them and provoke them to jealousy? (IT WOULDN'T) Ridiculous. (TRUE.) If he did practice Israel's baptism to reach the Jews, how could he preach the gospel of the grace of God at the same time? (Now wait a minute, you don't know what water baptism is. Paul baptized as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic
representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1
Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. That is always what water baptism was, "for the remission of sins" is just an attachment in the kingdom gospel. Water baptism is symbolic and never it never saved anyone, Paul could baptize just as he circumcised.) The gospel of the kingdom required water baptism. There is no way Paul would have practiced a baptism that was essential to receiving remission of sins. (Says you. He practiced a formerly required circumcision so why not a water baptism. What makes you think Paul would have had to baptize "for the remission of sins"?)
If it was not kingdom baptism (and it was not), where did he get his baptism from? (Paul baptized as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic
representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1
Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. That is always what water baptism was.) Although he was not sent baptize, he must have received it from the Lord. (Says you.) Else, why would he do it? (I can you one better than that, why are YOU baptizing?) That he was not sent to baptize in no way means that he stopped or that we shouldn't baptize today. He was not sent to observe the Lord's supper either but he observed it because he received it from the Lord. Isn't the Lord's supper CONNECTED with the last supper? Paul referred to the last supper when he taught about the Lord's supper. So, why couldn't God take water baptism and bring it over into the new dispensation allowing it to take on a new meaning in light of the new message He revealed through Paul? For Israel, remission of sins will come at the second coming of Christ. For us, we have NOW received the atonement. Water baptism for Israel looked forward to the second coming and establishment of their kingdom. Water baptism for the church looks back to death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Immersion in water is a good symbol of BOTH. We must be careful not to focus so much on the divisions of scripture that we fail to see the connections. In the OT the Passover lamb was symbolic for Israel. God took that symbol and applied it to the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 5:7). Jesus spoke to the Jewish apostles about the New Testament in His blood. Paul said he was a minister of the New Testament. (That was a lot of rambling and assumption the ZERO scriptural proof. Again, Paul baptized as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic
representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1
Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. That is always what water baptism was. I care about what the Bible says and what Paul delivered to me to follow him on (1 Cor. 11:1-2), I care very little about your assumptions.)
I have previously taught that John's baptism was probably either by pouring or sprinkling. However, after further study, I believe that it could very well have been immersion. The Bible says that John baptized Jews IN Jordan (Matt. 3:6) and he baptized at a place where there was MUCH WATER (Jn. 3:23). Pouring and sprinkling does not require the person being baptized to be in much water but immersion does. When Jesus was baptized He came up straightway out of the water. When Philip baptized the Eunuch they both went down into the water. Again, if it was only sprinkling or pouring, why go all the way into the water? Why not just stand near the water? Being immersed in water symbolized a thorough washing for Israel. It symbolizes death, burial, and resurrection for the church. So the mode of water baptism didn't change but the purpose did in accordance to what God revealed to Paul. (More assumption. Why do you Buptists always invent this junk about water baptism picturing the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? Paul baptized as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic
representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1
Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. Water baptism raised a question about purifying, John 3:25-26, and that was the law sprinkling, Numbers 8:6-7. It is also described in Hebrews 10:22. Baptizing thousands of people required "much water" even when done by the pouring/sprinkling. The historical records show that two people would stand in ankle deep water and baptize. That would be the easy thing to do. Also see in Joshua 3 where the priests were "in Jordan" but only standing ankle deep.)
There are actually more references in Acts to Paul baptizing with water than Peter. (Three references to Paul baptizing (Acts 16 and Acts 18). What is your point? You are being deceitful here, you are trying to make it out like Paul did most of the baptizing in Acts when REALLY the apostles of the circumcision did most of the baptizing. Count the references and see who is doing the baptizing, it is mostly KINGDOM GOSPEL apostles.) By the way, the expression "baptized WITH water" could apply to immersion. That he re-baptized some of John's disciples PROVES his baptism was distinct (Acts 19:4-5). That is so clear that the Bereans have to mess with the passage to change the meaning of it. (LOL. Smiley face ;). HAHAHA. What a joke buddy! What version are you using? The AV does not say that Paul
re-baptized anybody in Acts 19, that is Buptist tradition. Might I ask
WHY Paul would re-baptize in Acts 19? Acts 19:5 is referring to what
John did, that is Paul is telling what John did. http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/what-about-acts-19-nt-right-division.html But I realize the modern versions (non-AV) have quote marks around verse 4 but not verse 5 making Paul re-baptize. But if the AV is your authority than Paul did not re-baptize. Do you mind telling me WHY Paul would re-baptize?)
Where are we told to baptize? Many were baptized at Corinth and Paul only baptized a few of them, so he must have instructed his fellowlabourers to baptize. Paul told Timothy to keep the things he HEARD of him (would include his ministry during Acts) and to commit them to faithful men also (2 Tim. 1:13; 2:2). Well, Timothy was with Paul at Corinth and evidently helped him baptize many of the believers there (Acts 18:5-8). Paul didn't say, "keep what you heard from me EXCEPT water baptism which has now ceased with my prison ministry." (Paul said that we have "one faith" (Eph. 4:5), which is the doctrine committed to him for the church age revelation (1
Cor. 16:13, 2 Cor. 13:5, Eph. 4:13, Col. 1:23, Col. 2:7, 1 Tim. 3:9,
4:6, etc.) which is the mystery revelation doctrine committed to Paul
(Col. 2:6-7, Titus 1:9, 13). And guess what? Water baptism isn't in that
"one faith" of Ephesians 4:5 nor is it the "one baptism" of the same
verse, that is the baptism by the Spirit through the faith of the
operation of God upon salvation according to 1 Cor. 12:12-13 and
Colossians 2:10-12. Paul said to "redeem the time" in Ephesians and Colossians 4:5 and that would not include all of us waiting around at church to watch you buptize someone. You have made much assumption but have produced no verse that says to baptize or that Paul told other people to baptize.)The fact is that water baptism was such an established practice that there was no need for Paul to give instruction on it in his epistles. He was writing to water baptized believers! (BOLONEY!!!!! Since when does "well established fact" among the preacher boys stop God from putting some commands and facts about it in His word? Did Paul establish water baptism better than he did Christ's resurrection? Read 1 Corinthians 15:12 where some of the Corinthians were saying that Christ did not rise. So Paul established water baptism so well, (which according to you pictures the resurrection of Christ), but he did not establish the resurrection of Christ? Sure.....) On what basis should we baptize today? We are commanded to follow Paul and when he made that statement twice in in 1 Corinthians, it was during the book Acts period at a time when he was baptizing converts. I know, I know, he also circumcised Timothy and worked signs, etc... Well, he later taught that signs would cease and to let no man judge you in regard to circumcision but he never said anything about water baptism no longer being practiced. (UHGG! Huh, again, Paul never said TO baptize so why would he tell you not to baptize any more? God gave us one faith (Rom-Philemon) and "one baptism" and He told us to "redeem the time". That VERY WELL eliminates water buptism.)
That there is one baptism that one Spirit uses to put believers in one body in no way proves that there is only one valid baptism today. The way that the Bereans misuse Eph. 4:5 to support their view is pathetic (1 Cor. 1 also). (Where did I misuse Eph. 4:5? I said that there is one baptism and one faith in our calling and that we are to redeem the time and therefore BYE-BYE water baptism!!!)
Paul's silence on water baptism in his prison epistles proves nothing. He was also silent on hell and the virgin birth. (Lies, virgin birth (Gal. 4:4, 1 Tim. 3:16), hell (Rom. 2:8-9, 12, Col. 3:6, Eph. 5:6). So ha.)
I know that Acts is a transitional book. But that is not an excuse to get rid of water baptism. (Yes it is.) There are things that Paul did during Acts that we are not to follow after the transition. He told us about that in his epistles. He never said a word about water baptism being an exclusively Jewish practice that ceased along with sabbath keeping and circumcision. (????? Water baptism was completely a law ordinance, a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic
representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1
Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. That is always what water baptism was. Paul banned water baptism when he said "ONE FAITH", "ONE BAPTISM", and "REDEEM THE TIME". Why would he tell you it ceased if he never told you it started. To follow what Paul DID without scriptural reason is following Paul as a man. I do not care to follow a man, I want to be a follower of God according to Ephesians 5:1.)
Is water baptism an ordinance? Well, why did the Gentile jailor get baptized? Paul must have told him to. That would make it an ordinance. The ordinance of the Lord's supper symbolizes the death of Christ. The ordinance of water baptism symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection if Christ. Those aren't ordinances that were written by hand in the OT and were against us! There are other ordinances that Paul gave the church, but there are only two memorial ordinances. (????? Water baptism was completely a law ordinance, a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic
representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1
Peter 3:21, John 3:25-26, Numbers 8:6-7. That is always what water baptism was. Neither the Lord's supper nor water baptism could be an ordinance because neither one were commanded and we are told not to be subject to those ordinances...Colossians 2:
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[18] Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
[19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
[20] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
[21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
[22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
[23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
The "Grace churches" that I know about seem to be made up mostly of former Baptists, Methodists, etc.... (What church in America isn't???) Where is the fruit of new converts in the Berean movement? Where is the missions emphasis? They don't seem to be building churches. Some are so spiritual they just study the Bible at home. God forbid they ever go to a Baptist church! There also seems to be a spirit of superiority among them. There is definitely a spirit of strife and division which is ironic in light of their emphasis on the one body. (That is all boloney and false accusation. The Bereans I know are heavily trying to get God's message of grace out as best as they can. They are not a big movement so they do not have all the money and resources that the Bupdizzzts have. Are you judging their doctrine based on whether they have mega churches or not? Paul didn't have a big audience or following and he did not have a lot of money (Phil. 4:12). If you have a big, rich, and steadily growing movement in America than you are probably not preaching sound doctrine. You as a man are looking on the outward/earthly things but God rewards people according to what "sort" their work is and not how succesful it is.....1 Cor. 3:13)
Just because men like Stam and Bullinger taught some good things on dispensational truth doesn't mean we should follow them all the way to some of their extreme positions. (Agreed.) Both of them were Bible correctors. That had a lot to do with them dropping baptism. (True, but I am no Bible corrector. However, you seem to use something other than an AV in Acts 19.) I appreciate the good things that I have learned from the Bereans. But I also appreciate the good things I have learned from the Baptists. Where the Bereans line up with the Bible, great! Where the Baptists line up with the Bible, great! Where they depart from it, I depart from them. (Agreed. Likewise.)
The name Baptist is a perfectly good name full of historic significance that identifies our church with certain core beliefs. I see no need to ever drop that name. There are almost as many brands of Bereans as there are Baptists! The main thing is to be identified with Christ and His holy word. (Yeah, yeah, yeah. In other words you are sticking to Bupdizzzt tradition.)
I hope these random thoughts which were written while sitting on my coach watching college football (Maybe that was your problem) are some help to you. I wrote them off the cuff but they are the result of about 10 years of studying this issue and praying about it. (EEEK! You might try just a few more years.) I am thankful that the Lord has brought me to a concrete position on water baptism. ("Concrete"??? I would hate to see what you thought a weak position was.) It is much safer and more scriptural to keep it than to throw it out. (Do I really need to answer that one?)
Sunday, June 29, 2014
HOSS VS A BUPTIST (Part 1)
Here is me refuting a study from a friend of mine on the water baptism issue. This is no attack on him personally, just on the false baptist doctrine of water baptism. His words in italics, my refute in bold parenthesis. --Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
I consider the water baptism by Paul to be different than the water baptism for remission of sins because according to the gospel that Christ revealed to him and committed to his trust, Paul would have never baptized anyone for the remission of sins and in order that they might receive the Holy Ghost. (True, Paul baptized as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21) Did he baptize in order to impress the Jews as Stam and others claim? The Jews that rejected Christ had also rejected John's baptism (Lk. 7:30). How would baptizing the Philippian jailor at midnight impress the Jews? Baptizing the Corinthians didn't seem to impress the Jews (Acts 18:8-13). (Who said Paul baptized to impress the Jews? Water baptism as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience was done by Gentiles in Matthew 27:24. ) The fact that he baptized those that had already been baptized with John's baptism PROVES his was a different baptism (Acts 19:1-6). Do you recall the lesson I taught on that passage? (What version are you using? The AV does not say that Paul re-baptized anybody in Acts 19, that is Buptist tradition. Might I ask WHY Paul would re-baptize in Acts 19? Acts 19:5 is referring to what John did, that is Paul is telling what John did. http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/what-about-acts-19-nt-right-division.html )
We know that Paul was not sent to baptize and nowhere in scripture does he teach that it was essential. However, he did water baptize and he said that we should follow him. (So you follow Paul by doing what he was sent NOT to do and what he did not tell you to do? Sure.......) He never said that the church should not baptize converts. (Why would he tell them that if he never told them to START baptizing converts?) Baptism is for identification. Water baptism under the gospel of the kingdom identified disciples with that message. Paul's water baptism cannot identify people with the kingdom message because he never preached it. It must therefore identify believers with the gospel of the grace of God and be different from kingdom baptism. (You made that up, water baptism was a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21)
Paul did not promote water baptism but he did not prohibit it either. (Yes he did, he said that we have "one faith" (Eph. 4:5), which is the doctrine committed to him for the church age revelation (1 Cor. 16:13, 2 Cor. 13:5, Eph. 4:13, Col. 1:23, Col. 2:7, 1 Tim. 3:9, 4:6, etc.) which is the mystery revelation doctrine committed to Paul (Col. 2:6-7, Titus 1:9, 13). And guess what? Water baptism isn't in that "one faith" of Ephesians 4:5 nor is it the "one baptism" of the same verse, that is the baptism by the Spirit through the faith of the operation of God upon salvation according to 1 Cor. 12:12-13 and Colossians 2:10-12.) That is the position that I take also. As long as a person understands that water baptism does not put them in Christ or add anything to their standing in Him, I see no problem with baptizing believers that desire to be baptized. (Here's one, it is not in our "one faith" and it is a waste of time which we are told not to do in Ephesians 5:16 and Colossians 4:5.) We cannot dogmatically prove that Paul baptized by immersion but the Bible never says that he baptized WITH water and so we cannot prove that he didn't baptize by immersion. Baptism by immersion is the best mode of baptism to identify with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. (LOL. Water baptism is the symbol of purifying/the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21 and also see John 3:25-26 with Numbers 8:6-7.)
1 Cor. 1:17 does not mean that Paul was against water baptism. He was against people claiming they were baptized in his name (1 Cor. 1:13-16). (Well when they claimed to be baptized in his name he pretty much said he didn't care who was baptized.)
Eph. 4:5 does not mean that there is only one baptism for this age. It means there is only one baptism by which the one Spirit baptizes us into the one body. (It means that we have one baptism in our calling according to Eph. 4:1-3. Water baptism is outside of our calling.)
Keep studying the Book (2 Tim. 2:15), it is always time and effort well spent. Our goal is not just knowing, but knowing God and His will. (Thanks. You too.)
I consider the water baptism by Paul to be different than the water baptism for remission of sins because according to the gospel that Christ revealed to him and committed to his trust, Paul would have never baptized anyone for the remission of sins and in order that they might receive the Holy Ghost. (True, Paul baptized as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21) Did he baptize in order to impress the Jews as Stam and others claim? The Jews that rejected Christ had also rejected John's baptism (Lk. 7:30). How would baptizing the Philippian jailor at midnight impress the Jews? Baptizing the Corinthians didn't seem to impress the Jews (Acts 18:8-13). (Who said Paul baptized to impress the Jews? Water baptism as a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience was done by Gentiles in Matthew 27:24. ) The fact that he baptized those that had already been baptized with John's baptism PROVES his was a different baptism (Acts 19:1-6). Do you recall the lesson I taught on that passage? (What version are you using? The AV does not say that Paul re-baptized anybody in Acts 19, that is Buptist tradition. Might I ask WHY Paul would re-baptize in Acts 19? Acts 19:5 is referring to what John did, that is Paul is telling what John did. http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/what-about-acts-19-nt-right-division.html )
We know that Paul was not sent to baptize and nowhere in scripture does he teach that it was essential. However, he did water baptize and he said that we should follow him. (So you follow Paul by doing what he was sent NOT to do and what he did not tell you to do? Sure.......) He never said that the church should not baptize converts. (Why would he tell them that if he never told them to START baptizing converts?) Baptism is for identification. Water baptism under the gospel of the kingdom identified disciples with that message. Paul's water baptism cannot identify people with the kingdom message because he never preached it. It must therefore identify believers with the gospel of the grace of God and be different from kingdom baptism. (You made that up, water baptism was a symbol of the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21)
Paul did not promote water baptism but he did not prohibit it either. (Yes he did, he said that we have "one faith" (Eph. 4:5), which is the doctrine committed to him for the church age revelation (1 Cor. 16:13, 2 Cor. 13:5, Eph. 4:13, Col. 1:23, Col. 2:7, 1 Tim. 3:9, 4:6, etc.) which is the mystery revelation doctrine committed to Paul (Col. 2:6-7, Titus 1:9, 13). And guess what? Water baptism isn't in that "one faith" of Ephesians 4:5 nor is it the "one baptism" of the same verse, that is the baptism by the Spirit through the faith of the operation of God upon salvation according to 1 Cor. 12:12-13 and Colossians 2:10-12.) That is the position that I take also. As long as a person understands that water baptism does not put them in Christ or add anything to their standing in Him, I see no problem with baptizing believers that desire to be baptized. (Here's one, it is not in our "one faith" and it is a waste of time which we are told not to do in Ephesians 5:16 and Colossians 4:5.) We cannot dogmatically prove that Paul baptized by immersion but the Bible never says that he baptized WITH water and so we cannot prove that he didn't baptize by immersion. Baptism by immersion is the best mode of baptism to identify with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. (LOL. Water baptism is the symbol of purifying/the washing away of sins as a symbolic representation of the clean conscience.....Acts 22:16, Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21 and also see John 3:25-26 with Numbers 8:6-7.)
1 Cor. 1:17 does not mean that Paul was against water baptism. He was against people claiming they were baptized in his name (1 Cor. 1:13-16). (Well when they claimed to be baptized in his name he pretty much said he didn't care who was baptized.)
Eph. 4:5 does not mean that there is only one baptism for this age. It means there is only one baptism by which the one Spirit baptizes us into the one body. (It means that we have one baptism in our calling according to Eph. 4:1-3. Water baptism is outside of our calling.)
Keep studying the Book (2 Tim. 2:15), it is always time and effort well spent. Our goal is not just knowing, but knowing God and His will. (Thanks. You too.)
Thursday, June 26, 2014
James White and Calvinism refuted.
James White is a TULIP Calvinist that believes that he has always been saved and that he just had to realize it. He also believes that God picked and choosed who was going to heaven and who would go to hell--man had no choice.
However, the Bible I believe says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) If God just chose randomly who went to hell than He actually is willing that some perish.
James White the TULIP head also believes that Christ's death did not pay for all sin but that it only paid for the sins of the "elect". Christ paid for ALL men's sins but not all men believe the gospel, receiving the atonement. But it IS there for all men to accept if they choose.
Isaiah 53:6 ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
However, the Bible I believe says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) If God just chose randomly who went to hell than He actually is willing that some perish.
James White the TULIP head also believes that Christ's death did not pay for all sin but that it only paid for the sins of the "elect". Christ paid for ALL men's sins but not all men believe the gospel, receiving the atonement. But it IS there for all men to accept if they choose.
Isaiah 53:6 ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 Timothy 2:
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Also note that "election" is according to God's foreknowledge, not according to God's random selection.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
As for "predestination", James White believes that God randomly picked him (predestinated) to be saved and made him the elect of God (before he was even born). Now Jimmy has a problem. Why would an individual that is the "elect of God" need to believe the gospel, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect"??? If you are the elect of God than you do not to be saved, no one can charge anything against you. James White thinks he was always saved but he had not always realized it, which is ludicrous.
Anytime you see "predestinate" in the Bible in regards to an individual in the church age (Israel is God's elect nation) you are talking about being in the body of Christ, the spiritual church. And you are talking about being predestinated to God's purpose, His works.
The truth of the universal church (the body of Christ) was "hid in God" before the foundation of the world until revealed to Paul in the dispensation of grace. When someone believes the gospel and trusts Christ as his Savior he is then sealed by the Spirit and baptized BY the Spirit through the faith of the operation of God into Christ's body, crucified, buried, risen, and seated in heaven.
Ephesians 3:
[2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
[4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
[5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
[6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
[7] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
[8] Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
[4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
[5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
[6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
[7] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
[8] Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Colossians 2:
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
That is the saved persons standing in the church age in this dispensation of grace. We are members of Christ, of His flesh and of His bones. This dispensation of grace and the universal church, the body of Christ, was a mystery hid in God until revealed to Paul. So how does that play into the TULIP Calvinism debate? Let me show you. Now let's look at the big, bad, proof text of every TULIP Calvinist there is.
Ephesians 1:
[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
There's the big one! "He hath chosen us..." and then the Calvinist stops. But the fact is God chose us "IN HIM". For salvation? NOPE! "That we should be holy and without blame", the body of Christ (universal church) was hid in God until revealed to Paul. If you're saved than you are in that church, you are in Christ's body. The body of Christ has been predestinated to be holy before God. You were chosen "in Christ" to be holy and without blame (Christian service).
Where did it say that God randomly chose you to salvation? It didn't, it said that you were chosen (in Christ) to be holy and without blame. That is your service to God as a member of His body. No random salvation in the passage, that would contradict more Bible than you could shake a stick at. Continue on in Ephesians 1.
Ephesians 1
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
There it is in black and white. Predestination is according to God's purpose for His members, "that we should be to the praise of His glory". There is not one verse anywhere in the Bible that says God randomly picks and chooses people to heaven or hell--that would be nutty.
James White also believes in "irresistible grace" and "total depravity". Total depravity means that he thinks that man cannot chose God or His salvation because he is too depraved, therefore God predestinates you so that you are already saved and you just have to realize it.
As for "irresistible grace", here is what they say "When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted."
The problem is that this teaching is not in the Bible. Agreed, man cannot save himself and it is true that "there is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 11:3). But the Bible teaches that a sinner can hear the gospel and accept it when he hears that great message that Christ died for him. Romans 10 is a good refute to Calvinism, but particularly to this "total depravity" issue.
Romans 10:
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If Calvinism is true than only the "predestinated elect" can believe the gospel and there is a difference between the people and God if not rich to everyone--only some "predestinated elect".[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
[19] But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
[20] But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
[21] But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
[19] But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
[20] But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
[21] But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Those last verses (16-21) plainly state that some people have not obeyed the gospel, that is believing the gospel, but those that hear the word of God can put their faith in the Christ (v. 17). If the gospel was "irresistible" than why is God having to stretch forth His hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people? How can anyone "disobey" the gospel if it is soooo irresistible? Some people just resist it.
Acts 26:
[28] Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
[29] And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.
[29] And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.
There, somebody resisted it. Then, Paul said that he wished everyone that heard him preach would be saved. Why would Paul say that if only he "predestinated elect" could be saved?
As for perseverance of the saints, I am not entirely sure what that means. I saw one dude say it meant eternal security for the believer which I agree with.
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
Wednesday, June 25, 2014
NIV Challenege.
Used by permission of Mrs. Deborah Collins http://midactsdisp.blogspot.com/search/label/NIV%20Challenge
Try Answering These From Your NIV
By Rex L. Cobb
INSTRUCTIONS:Using the New International Version Bible, answer the following questions.Do not rely on your memory. As the Bible is the final authority, you must take the answer from the Bible verse (not from footnotes but from the text).
1. Fill in the missing words in Matthew 5:44. “Love your enemies,__________ them that curse you, ______________ to them that hate you, and pray for them that __________ and persecute you.”
2. According to Matthew 17:21, what two things are required to cast out this type of demon? According to Matthew 18:11, why did Jesus come to earth?
3. According to Matthew 27:2, what was Pilate’s first name?
4. In Matthew 27:35, when the wicked soldiers parted His garments, they were fulfilling the words of the prophet. Copy what the prophet said in Matthew 27:35 from the NIV.
5. In Mark 3:15, Jesus gave the apostles power to cast out demons and to: ____________
6. According to Mark 7:16, what does a man need to be able to hear?
7. According to Luke 7:28, what was John? (teacher, prophet, carpenter, etc.). What is his title or last name?
8. In Luke 9:55, what did the disciples not know?
9. In Luke 9:56, what did the Son of man not come to do? According to this verse, what did He come to do?
10. In Luke 22:14, how many apostles were with Jesus?
11. According to Luke 23:38, in what three languages was the superscription written?
12. In Luke 24:42, what did they give Jesus to eat with His fish?
13. John 3:13 is a very important verse, proving the deity of Christ. According to this verse (as Jesus spoke), where is the Son of man?
14. What happened each year as told in John 5:4?
15. In John 7:50, what time of day did Nicodemus come to Jesus?
16. In Acts 8:37, what is the one requirement for baptism?
17. What did Saul ask Jesus in Acts 9:6?
18. Write the name of the man mentioned in Acts 15:34.
19. Study Acts 24:6-8. What would the Jew have done with Paul? What was the chief captain’s name? What did the chief captain command?
20. Copy Romans 16:24 word for word from the NIV.
21. First Timothy 3:16 is perhaps the greatest verse in the New Testament concerning the deity of Christ. In this verse, who was manifested in the flesh?
22. In the second part of First Peter 4:14, how do [they] speak of Christ? And, what do we Christians do?
23. Who are the three Persons of the Trinity in First John 5:7?24. Revelation 1:11 is another very important verse that proves the deity of Christ. In the first part of this verse Jesus said, “I am the A______________ and O___________, the _________ and the _______:”
Conclusion: Little space is provided for your answers, but it’s much more than needed. If you followed the instructions above, you not only failed the test, you receive a big goose egg.(Ed. These are all missing in the NIV.) So now what do you think of your “accurate, easy to understand, up to date Bible”?
If you would like to improve your score, and in fact score 100%, you can take this test using the Authorized (King James) Bible.
Friday, June 13, 2014
The New "King James" Version exposed
The "New King James Version" is not a King James and it is not new. See below where I expose it as a godless piece of dung that took you justification out of the text and then said that the Holy Spirit does not work on the earth during the tribulation period. It also teaches that people were baptized "into Moses" and that Paul re-baptized converts. It also says that Paul preached the "new covenant" which is a terrible lie.
We saw that we are justified by the faith of Christ and not our faith in this post http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/faith-in-christ-and-faith-of-christ.html But the NKJV says that you are justified by your own faith, which requires works to be perfected according to James 2:17-26.
NKJV: Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all
AV 1611: Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
NKJV: Galatians 2:16, 20 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
AV 1611: Galatians 2:16, 20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
NKJV: Philippians 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
AV 1611: Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Your justification by faith is not found in the NKJV.
NKJV: Acts 19:
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
AV 1611: Acts 19:
[4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Notice the quote marks in the NKJV stop with verse 4 and make verse 5 referring to something Paul did. Why would Paul re-baptize? There is nothing in the passage that would make anyone need to be re-baptized. The AV 1611 does not even have quote marks and does not make Paul re-baptize anybody. Paul just revied John's message in verses 4-5 and then laid hands on them to give them the baptism with the Holy Ghost. The NKJV reading makes no sense.
NKJV: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
AV 1611: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The context is the rapture and the tribulation period. The NKJV capitalized "he" to make it the Holy Spirit, but it ain't. That "he" is referring to the body of Christ, the Holy Spirit is not taken out of the earth during the tribulation period because people are going to be filled with Him doing signs and wonders. The NKJV reading is confusing, stupid, and it promotes false teaching.
NKJV: 1 Corinthians 10:
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
AV 1611: 1 Corinthians 10:
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
There the NKJV told you that they were baptized INTO Moses, but nobody was ever baptized into Moses. The only person anybody has ever been baptized into is Jesus Christ because only Jesus Christ has a spiritual body made up of all believers in the church age. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 says, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
NKJV: 2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
AV 1611: 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
There the NKJV made Paul a minister of the New Covenant rather than the New Testament. Paul was a minister of the New Testament blood of Christ but he was not a minister of Israel's New Covenant. The problem is the NKJV translators didn't know the difference between a testament and a covenant and they did not know right division.
The New Covenant is for Israel, not the body of Christ. The New Covenant is established after the tribulation period for the kingdom gospel believers as seen here Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, 15:11, Matthew 19:21, 24:13, James 2:17-26, 1 Peter 1:7-11, 3:20-21, 1 John 1:9, 2:3-4, 3:6, 5:1-5, 2 John 1:9, Revelation 2:5, 16, 23, 26, 3:16, 14:12, 22:14, Ezekiel 36:24-28, Jeremiah 31:33-36, 32:37-40, and Romans 11:26-27. Then of course the body of Christ church age believer is instantly justified from all things having already forgiven us all trespasses according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Colossians 1:13-14, Ephesians 1:7, Romans 3:21-31, 4:1-25, 5:1-21, Galatians 2:16, 20, and Colossians 2:6-14.
The New "King James" Version is still a corrupt piece of garbage no matter if it has "King James" in the name or not.
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
We saw that we are justified by the faith of Christ and not our faith in this post http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/faith-in-christ-and-faith-of-christ.html But the NKJV says that you are justified by your own faith, which requires works to be perfected according to James 2:17-26.
NKJV: Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all
AV 1611: Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
NKJV: Galatians 2:16, 20 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
AV 1611: Galatians 2:16, 20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
NKJV: Philippians 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
AV 1611: Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Your justification by faith is not found in the NKJV.
NKJV: Acts 19:
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
AV 1611: Acts 19:
[4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Notice the quote marks in the NKJV stop with verse 4 and make verse 5 referring to something Paul did. Why would Paul re-baptize? There is nothing in the passage that would make anyone need to be re-baptized. The AV 1611 does not even have quote marks and does not make Paul re-baptize anybody. Paul just revied John's message in verses 4-5 and then laid hands on them to give them the baptism with the Holy Ghost. The NKJV reading makes no sense.
NKJV: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
AV 1611: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The context is the rapture and the tribulation period. The NKJV capitalized "he" to make it the Holy Spirit, but it ain't. That "he" is referring to the body of Christ, the Holy Spirit is not taken out of the earth during the tribulation period because people are going to be filled with Him doing signs and wonders. The NKJV reading is confusing, stupid, and it promotes false teaching.
NKJV: 1 Corinthians 10:
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
AV 1611: 1 Corinthians 10:
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
There the NKJV told you that they were baptized INTO Moses, but nobody was ever baptized into Moses. The only person anybody has ever been baptized into is Jesus Christ because only Jesus Christ has a spiritual body made up of all believers in the church age. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 says, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
NKJV: 2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
AV 1611: 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
There the NKJV made Paul a minister of the New Covenant rather than the New Testament. Paul was a minister of the New Testament blood of Christ but he was not a minister of Israel's New Covenant. The problem is the NKJV translators didn't know the difference between a testament and a covenant and they did not know right division.
The New Covenant is for Israel, not the body of Christ. The New Covenant is established after the tribulation period for the kingdom gospel believers as seen here Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, 15:11, Matthew 19:21, 24:13, James 2:17-26, 1 Peter 1:7-11, 3:20-21, 1 John 1:9, 2:3-4, 3:6, 5:1-5, 2 John 1:9, Revelation 2:5, 16, 23, 26, 3:16, 14:12, 22:14, Ezekiel 36:24-28, Jeremiah 31:33-36, 32:37-40, and Romans 11:26-27. Then of course the body of Christ church age believer is instantly justified from all things having already forgiven us all trespasses according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Colossians 1:13-14, Ephesians 1:7, Romans 3:21-31, 4:1-25, 5:1-21, Galatians 2:16, 20, and Colossians 2:6-14.
The New "King James" Version is still a corrupt piece of garbage no matter if it has "King James" in the name or not.
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
HOSS VS BRIAN KELSON (ACTS 28.NET). MID-ACTS VS 28
I once looked into the Acts 28 position, then I realized how many errors it has in it. Since then I have been a staunch anti-Acts 28 position proponent as it leads people into such strange doctrines such as no-hell, two bodies of Christ, polygamy, universal salvation, etc.
When I first found out about Brian Kelson and his Acts 28 ministry I asked him 4 questions about the position as I did not really know anything about it. I thought some of the points the Acts 28 position made seemed valid--until I did my homework.
Now that I have done extensive study into the possibility of the validity of the Acts 28 position and know that it is very wrong I will go through brother Kelson's answer and point out the error of the Acts 28 teaching. This is an attack on the Acts 28 position, not brother Kelson.
His words in red, mine in green. --Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
1. Do "Acts 28ers" believe in hell? (as in eternal torment, fire, etc.)
2. What is Romans 12:4-5 talking about as far as a "one body in Christ". (if not THE body of Christ)
3. What is the gospel, if not 1 Cor. 15:1-4?
4. What is the "rapture" of the body of Christ if not 1 Thes. 4 or 1 Cor. 15?
I realize redemption "through his blood" [Christ] is found in the non-Acts epistles and also a "rapture" is hinted at, but with my current "Mid Acts" mindset I consider these things not that fully declared in Paul's non-Acts epistles.
(Those were my questions)
Before addressing each question, let us remember that the truth has been a long time in the unveiling. The reformers brought much dogma across from the Catholic Church and only as students of the word noticed the things differing did the present truth begin to come forth. As we both know, learning includes unlearning and this is the most difficult step for all of us to take. How hard is it to speak to our Christian friends of Pauline doctrines when they are so locked into systems which are gospel based? Is it any wonder they have long singing worship type services where many of the songs are Old Testament themes. As you know, they mix prophesy and promise and every once in a while they might sing about the current truth. They all believe they are going to heaven and think they can find that in the Old Testament and the Gospels. We know the only way they will ever find it there, is to read the latter letters of Paul and then drag that truth back where it does not belong. We must not take Ephesians and Colossian's truth and drag it back anywhere, it belongs to today, not in the things of the past. (There brother Kelson wrote a whole paragraph to get me "warmed up" to the idea of unveiling an entirely new doctrine. He tries to slip the Acts 28 position into the game by claiming "recovering knowledge".)
It is my view that MidActs is part of this progression of truth. In that circle Paul is elevated for the apostleship he was given and great gains have been made in showing forth the mystery of Ephesians. (True. M.A.D. is part of a progression back to the Biblical truth that the Catholic church distorted and hindered from coming into light.)
So now we turn to your questions and I'll put them first then give an answer with some further reading links for your consideration.
1. Do "Acts 28ers" believe in hell? (as in eternal torment, fire, etc.)
The first thing I need to say is this, Acts 28 is not defined by any view as regards hell. Some Acts28ers might believe in eternal torment and fire, some may not. So please don’t' think that turning to Acts 28 as the dividing line, makes it necessary for anyone to hold any particular view on hell. (Perhaps this is true, but for some reason every Acts 28er I know of throws out hell. Perhaps because Chuck Belch, the founder of Acts 28, believed that. [Charles Welch])
Hell is not an easy subject to address. In the New Testament there are three hells. Now I know this sounds crazy, but it is the truth. (You're right it does sound crazy. You're wrong, it is not the truth.)
Hell 1. The Lord spoke about ghehennah (the valley of Hinnom, 2Kings 23:10, 2Chron.28:3, Jer.7:31-32), a valley the Jews knew about and into which the bodies of those who sin against the Lord would be thrown as per Is.66 and Mark 9:44-49. This hell is near Jerusalem and we can go there without being burnt at this time, but when the Lord reigns on the earth, then that valley will be the rubbish dump the prophet spoke about. (Try my post on hell http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/hell-turn-or-burn-as-they-say.html Hell is an eternal garbage dump for lost souls. That is what the Bible teaches as seen in my post.
Hell 2 In 2Pet.2:4, Peter writes about a hell into which the angels who sinned have been cast. This word is tartaroo, a certain place we don't fully know about. (Oh really? Well ain't you smart? Hell is hell, I don't care about this tartar sauce stuff.)
Hell 3. The other hell is the grave. Rev.20:14.
But here is the important question. Which hell did PAUL write about? If we claim to follow our Apostle, then shouldn't we follow him in this truth too? Please search for the word HELL in Paul. If we use the KJV then perhaps we might be surprised when NOT ONE occurrence of hell can be found in Paul. Likewise, while searching through Paul we can NOT find ONE scripture where Paul writes the wages of sin is conscious eternal punishment in hell. For if conscious eternal punishment is the wages of sin, then we are not saved for then Christ should be still consciously eternally punished BUT Christ died for our sin and sins and if that was
sufficient for our God then....??????????????
1Cor.15:55 is the only hell Paul wrote about, which is the grave as in Rev.20:14.
(That is a pack of lies. I don't care if Paul mentions "hell" of not. Why should he mention it? Read my post on hell and look at these references.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You do not think Paul taught everlasting judgement do ya?
Romans 1:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 2:
[2] But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
[3] And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
[5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 3:
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
[5] But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
[6] God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
[7] For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
[8] And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(and don't forget Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. )
That sound like heaven to you chump? How about this one.
Hebrews 9:
[25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The Bible speaks for itself.
"But Paul did not mention the word hell"......well did that sound like heaven to you? Go pass out the Watch Tower. What a joke.
Here is a list of articles to examine in the matter of hell. This will answer what I believe, but remember, this is not an entry question into the Acts 28 position, hell is a subject all Christians from any persuasion should examine. On this link look at all the articles listed under THE DESTINY OF MAN www.bibleunderstanding.com/biblestudies.htm
Next question.
2. What is Romans 12:4-5 talking about as far as a "one body in Christ" (if not THE body of Christ)
Every text has a context brother and here is the passage; Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Like 1Cor.12, the subject here is the supernatural gifts, not the relationship between Christ and our church today. They, each believer during the Acts period, were a part of that body which was made complete by each believer. The body of Corinthians and Romans was made up in total by the believers, NOT by the believers and Christ as per Ephesians. This is clearly said by Paul's analogy of the ear, eye and foot of 1Cor.12. Nowhere is Christ a part of this body. THEY, at that time, were the complete body from head to toe and that body was a picture of the harmonious function of those gifts given during the Acts period. Look at what Paul says in Romans 12;
(That is.....terrible. What the heck are you talking about? Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:15 that they were "members of Christ" and that they belonged to Christ and then in 1 Corinthians 12:27 he said that they were the body of Christ......who do you think was the HEAD? Does Christ have a body and members that he is NOT the Head of? I'm afraid you are not making sense.)
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
They were members of each other. How can Paul write of "the body of Christ" in 1Cor.12:27, then change to "one body IN CHRIST" in Roms.12? (What is your point? Are you saying that we are not one body in Christ?) Romans was written after Corinthians. Here's the thing, what did Paul write of Christ in Romans? The answer is forthcoming in chapter 15; Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
If Christ was a minister of the circumcision in Romans, how can that possible describe him as Head of our calling? It can't. I have much more to say but here are some of my audios on this subject; please listen to
4 every audio listed beside number 6 on this link www.acts28.net/audios.html
(That was royally dumb. The text says "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:". How does Paul saying that Christ's earthly ministry was to the Jews mean that Romans is not written to us? Paul said Christ WAS a minister of the circumcision--past tense. And the Romans were not the circumcision. Your not making sense brother.
3. What is the gospel, if not 1 Cor. 15:1-4?
This morning I posted on face book and this is what I posted;
1. When Paul wrote Romans 3:19-25, he declared the redemption and righteousness of God upon all those who believe in our Lord. This is a continuing truth; it remains a constant truth through all dispensations. Let’s test things differing in Romans. 2. BUT when Paul referred to the Lord later in Romans as to the HOPE those believers at that time held, he said this of the Lord; Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. Psa. 18:49 Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. Deut. 32:43 Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. Psa. 117:1 Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Isa. 11:1, 10 Rom 15:13 Now the God of (THIS) hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
(Notice how Mr. Kelson inserted "(THIS)" into Romans 15:13 to make the text say something different. If we can insert whatever we want into a passage of scripture than we can believe whatever we want because we would be the authority. Meanwhile I still believe Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
How plain can this be? (Not very.) The Romans were redeemed, justified in Christ BUT the hope they held was the Promises made to the Fathers those very promises Christ had confirmed in his earthly ministry; their hope was the OT hope. (Only in the the BKV, Brian Kelson Version.) They were not destined for the heavenly places. This is also the OT hope proclaimed in Paul's gospel in Acts 13:32 where glad tidings is the word gospel. I am aware of how some Mid Acts will claim Roms.15 is only written to some of the believers during Acts and not the body believers, but this cannot be true, for Paul includes himself when he writes;
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
WE, includes Paul back in Romans in the Acts period and the hope Paul held was the things written aforetime. (You do not know what your hope is....http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/star-wars-fellowinheritance-with-saints.html )
Today, we are redeemed and justified in the same finished work of our Lord BUT we have a new hope, we have been raised and seated in the above heavens which Moses and the prophets knew nothing about. (We are in heavenly places because we are "in Christ" according to Ephesians 2:6. The hope of Acts is the mystery rapture of the body of Christ that is nowhere in the OT. The dwelling place of the body of Christ is being with Christ, that will be the New Jerusalem. Read my post, even your precious post-Acts epistle teaches it. May the force be with you!)
Can we see the difference? (No.) The gospel of life in Christ is continuing, it doesn't change but the dispensation changed at Acts 28. Only by faith in our Lord, believing into Him do we have redemption, justification and eternal life, but WHERE will we enjoy eternal life? Not the same place as the Roman believers during Acts that's for sure.
So yes, 1Cor.15:1-4 would be the gospel of life in Christ, the one that remains across Acts 28 BUT let's look at the resurrection at the end of the chapter. If this is the body of Christ in 1Cor.12 and 15 we have a major problem. (Only in your mind.)
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Is.25:8 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? Hos.13:14.
Notice Paul is quoting the Old Testament in verse 54 and 55. The resurrection Paul is writing about is the resurrection of Isaiah and Hosea. Isaiah and Hosea know nothing of any resurrection to the heavenly places. The resurrection of 1Cor.15 is to the earth. Please read these OT passages. (Blah, blah, blah. Paul told you that this rapture was a "mystery" given "by the word of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:51, 1 Thessalonians 4:15) and you are trying to tell me that it is found in the OT just because he quoted the "saying" about victory over death? Wow.)
So 1Cor.15 is like the Romans piece I posted this morning on face book. Both Romans and Corinthians have continuing truths in Paul, that glorious truth that Christ is the only sin bearer through whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, and justification BUT Romans and Corinthians were written BEFORE The Mystery of Ephesians was revealed to him. (Yep, I believe you.)
For further reading, I recommend my book The Appearing, sorry brother for this commercial but it's only $10 for the pdf and the $10 goes towards my little ministry to the Lord; www.acts28.net/publications.html
4. What is the "rapture" of the body of Christ if not 1 Thes. 4 or 1 Cor. 15?
We have already looked at the resurrection in 1Cor.15 which is to the earth. The Trumpet of Corinthians, Thessalonians, Matt.24 and Revelation is the same last Trumpet of the 7. (Proof? You're saying the mystery rapture of 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians 4 is actually not a mystery? Proof?)
The rapture is the hope of the believers during Acts, it is not the hope of the church which is His Body. The "rapture" is purely Old Testament (What a quack.). Again, you will find some clues to this on the link above, www.acts28.net/publications.html
Our hope is among those things which were hidden in God and the rapture sure isn't anything hidden in God, we find it in Exodus 19 (and 24:9-11) (That is a big, fat LOL). How can something belonging to Israels typical salvation have anything to do with our calling hidden in God when Israel was delivered from Egypt?
I realize redemption "through his blood" [Christ] is found in the non-Acts epistles and also a "rapture" is hinted at, but with my current "Mid Acts" mindset I consider these things not that fully declared in Paul's non-Acts epistles. (That was all wild claims by you. No proof. However, Paul said the rapture was a "mystery" given "by the word of the Lord". Have fun with that.)
Here is a booklet which shows the post Acts letters of Paul and the continuing eternal truths of redemption; Fundamentals and The Mystery. Find it here; www.acts28.net/studies.html
The post Acts letters of Paul don’t speak about the coming of the Lord, the rapture or even the apocalypse; Revelation. These things alone indicate a great change after the Acts period letters were written. This change took place at Acts 28. Here is a chart showing the grouping of Paul’s letters around Acts 28; www.acts28.net/whatisacts28.html
The “rapture” was the hope of the Acts period. That hope was postponed at the close of the book of Acts after which The Mystery was revealed to Paul.
I know you are considering some things not brought out from the mid acts teachings, but if the Berean spirit I believe prompted you to write, so I believe it will help you to search and see if these things be so. (AMEN! Praise de lawd! I have searched the scriptures and I found out that it ain't so! Amen!)
When I first found out about Brian Kelson and his Acts 28 ministry I asked him 4 questions about the position as I did not really know anything about it. I thought some of the points the Acts 28 position made seemed valid--until I did my homework.
Now that I have done extensive study into the possibility of the validity of the Acts 28 position and know that it is very wrong I will go through brother Kelson's answer and point out the error of the Acts 28 teaching. This is an attack on the Acts 28 position, not brother Kelson.
His words in red, mine in green. --Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
1. Do "Acts 28ers" believe in hell? (as in eternal torment, fire, etc.)
2. What is Romans 12:4-5 talking about as far as a "one body in Christ". (if not THE body of Christ)
3. What is the gospel, if not 1 Cor. 15:1-4?
4. What is the "rapture" of the body of Christ if not 1 Thes. 4 or 1 Cor. 15?
I realize redemption "through his blood" [Christ] is found in the non-Acts epistles and also a "rapture" is hinted at, but with my current "Mid Acts" mindset I consider these things not that fully declared in Paul's non-Acts epistles.
(Those were my questions)
Before addressing each question, let us remember that the truth has been a long time in the unveiling. The reformers brought much dogma across from the Catholic Church and only as students of the word noticed the things differing did the present truth begin to come forth. As we both know, learning includes unlearning and this is the most difficult step for all of us to take. How hard is it to speak to our Christian friends of Pauline doctrines when they are so locked into systems which are gospel based? Is it any wonder they have long singing worship type services where many of the songs are Old Testament themes. As you know, they mix prophesy and promise and every once in a while they might sing about the current truth. They all believe they are going to heaven and think they can find that in the Old Testament and the Gospels. We know the only way they will ever find it there, is to read the latter letters of Paul and then drag that truth back where it does not belong. We must not take Ephesians and Colossian's truth and drag it back anywhere, it belongs to today, not in the things of the past. (There brother Kelson wrote a whole paragraph to get me "warmed up" to the idea of unveiling an entirely new doctrine. He tries to slip the Acts 28 position into the game by claiming "recovering knowledge".)
It is my view that MidActs is part of this progression of truth. In that circle Paul is elevated for the apostleship he was given and great gains have been made in showing forth the mystery of Ephesians. (True. M.A.D. is part of a progression back to the Biblical truth that the Catholic church distorted and hindered from coming into light.)
So now we turn to your questions and I'll put them first then give an answer with some further reading links for your consideration.
1. Do "Acts 28ers" believe in hell? (as in eternal torment, fire, etc.)
The first thing I need to say is this, Acts 28 is not defined by any view as regards hell. Some Acts28ers might believe in eternal torment and fire, some may not. So please don’t' think that turning to Acts 28 as the dividing line, makes it necessary for anyone to hold any particular view on hell. (Perhaps this is true, but for some reason every Acts 28er I know of throws out hell. Perhaps because Chuck Belch, the founder of Acts 28, believed that. [Charles Welch])
Hell is not an easy subject to address. In the New Testament there are three hells. Now I know this sounds crazy, but it is the truth. (You're right it does sound crazy. You're wrong, it is not the truth.)
Hell 1. The Lord spoke about ghehennah (the valley of Hinnom, 2Kings 23:10, 2Chron.28:3, Jer.7:31-32), a valley the Jews knew about and into which the bodies of those who sin against the Lord would be thrown as per Is.66 and Mark 9:44-49. This hell is near Jerusalem and we can go there without being burnt at this time, but when the Lord reigns on the earth, then that valley will be the rubbish dump the prophet spoke about. (Try my post on hell http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/hell-turn-or-burn-as-they-say.html Hell is an eternal garbage dump for lost souls. That is what the Bible teaches as seen in my post.
Hell 2 In 2Pet.2:4, Peter writes about a hell into which the angels who sinned have been cast. This word is tartaroo, a certain place we don't fully know about. (Oh really? Well ain't you smart? Hell is hell, I don't care about this tartar sauce stuff.)
Hell 3. The other hell is the grave. Rev.20:14.
But here is the important question. Which hell did PAUL write about? If we claim to follow our Apostle, then shouldn't we follow him in this truth too? Please search for the word HELL in Paul. If we use the KJV then perhaps we might be surprised when NOT ONE occurrence of hell can be found in Paul. Likewise, while searching through Paul we can NOT find ONE scripture where Paul writes the wages of sin is conscious eternal punishment in hell. For if conscious eternal punishment is the wages of sin, then we are not saved for then Christ should be still consciously eternally punished BUT Christ died for our sin and sins and if that was
sufficient for our God then....??????????????
1Cor.15:55 is the only hell Paul wrote about, which is the grave as in Rev.20:14.
(That is a pack of lies. I don't care if Paul mentions "hell" of not. Why should he mention it? Read my post on hell and look at these references.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You do not think Paul taught everlasting judgement do ya?
Romans 1:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 2:
[2] But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
[3] And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
[5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 3:
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
[5] But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
[6] God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
[7] For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
[8] And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(and don't forget Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. )
That sound like heaven to you chump? How about this one.
Hebrews 9:
[25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The Bible speaks for itself.
"But Paul did not mention the word hell"......well did that sound like heaven to you? Go pass out the Watch Tower. What a joke.
Here is a list of articles to examine in the matter of hell. This will answer what I believe, but remember, this is not an entry question into the Acts 28 position, hell is a subject all Christians from any persuasion should examine. On this link look at all the articles listed under THE DESTINY OF MAN www.bibleunderstanding.com/biblestudies.htm
Next question.
2. What is Romans 12:4-5 talking about as far as a "one body in Christ" (if not THE body of Christ)
Every text has a context brother and here is the passage; Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Like 1Cor.12, the subject here is the supernatural gifts, not the relationship between Christ and our church today. They, each believer during the Acts period, were a part of that body which was made complete by each believer. The body of Corinthians and Romans was made up in total by the believers, NOT by the believers and Christ as per Ephesians. This is clearly said by Paul's analogy of the ear, eye and foot of 1Cor.12. Nowhere is Christ a part of this body. THEY, at that time, were the complete body from head to toe and that body was a picture of the harmonious function of those gifts given during the Acts period. Look at what Paul says in Romans 12;
(That is.....terrible. What the heck are you talking about? Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:15 that they were "members of Christ" and that they belonged to Christ and then in 1 Corinthians 12:27 he said that they were the body of Christ......who do you think was the HEAD? Does Christ have a body and members that he is NOT the Head of? I'm afraid you are not making sense.)
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
They were members of each other. How can Paul write of "the body of Christ" in 1Cor.12:27, then change to "one body IN CHRIST" in Roms.12? (What is your point? Are you saying that we are not one body in Christ?) Romans was written after Corinthians. Here's the thing, what did Paul write of Christ in Romans? The answer is forthcoming in chapter 15; Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
If Christ was a minister of the circumcision in Romans, how can that possible describe him as Head of our calling? It can't. I have much more to say but here are some of my audios on this subject; please listen to
4 every audio listed beside number 6 on this link www.acts28.net/audios.html
(That was royally dumb. The text says "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:". How does Paul saying that Christ's earthly ministry was to the Jews mean that Romans is not written to us? Paul said Christ WAS a minister of the circumcision--past tense. And the Romans were not the circumcision. Your not making sense brother.
3. What is the gospel, if not 1 Cor. 15:1-4?
This morning I posted on face book and this is what I posted;
1. When Paul wrote Romans 3:19-25, he declared the redemption and righteousness of God upon all those who believe in our Lord. This is a continuing truth; it remains a constant truth through all dispensations. Let’s test things differing in Romans. 2. BUT when Paul referred to the Lord later in Romans as to the HOPE those believers at that time held, he said this of the Lord; Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. Psa. 18:49 Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. Deut. 32:43 Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. Psa. 117:1 Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Isa. 11:1, 10 Rom 15:13 Now the God of (THIS) hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
(Notice how Mr. Kelson inserted "(THIS)" into Romans 15:13 to make the text say something different. If we can insert whatever we want into a passage of scripture than we can believe whatever we want because we would be the authority. Meanwhile I still believe Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
How plain can this be? (Not very.) The Romans were redeemed, justified in Christ BUT the hope they held was the Promises made to the Fathers those very promises Christ had confirmed in his earthly ministry; their hope was the OT hope. (Only in the the BKV, Brian Kelson Version.) They were not destined for the heavenly places. This is also the OT hope proclaimed in Paul's gospel in Acts 13:32 where glad tidings is the word gospel. I am aware of how some Mid Acts will claim Roms.15 is only written to some of the believers during Acts and not the body believers, but this cannot be true, for Paul includes himself when he writes;
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
WE, includes Paul back in Romans in the Acts period and the hope Paul held was the things written aforetime. (You do not know what your hope is....http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/06/star-wars-fellowinheritance-with-saints.html )
Today, we are redeemed and justified in the same finished work of our Lord BUT we have a new hope, we have been raised and seated in the above heavens which Moses and the prophets knew nothing about. (We are in heavenly places because we are "in Christ" according to Ephesians 2:6. The hope of Acts is the mystery rapture of the body of Christ that is nowhere in the OT. The dwelling place of the body of Christ is being with Christ, that will be the New Jerusalem. Read my post, even your precious post-Acts epistle teaches it. May the force be with you!)
Can we see the difference? (No.) The gospel of life in Christ is continuing, it doesn't change but the dispensation changed at Acts 28. Only by faith in our Lord, believing into Him do we have redemption, justification and eternal life, but WHERE will we enjoy eternal life? Not the same place as the Roman believers during Acts that's for sure.
So yes, 1Cor.15:1-4 would be the gospel of life in Christ, the one that remains across Acts 28 BUT let's look at the resurrection at the end of the chapter. If this is the body of Christ in 1Cor.12 and 15 we have a major problem. (Only in your mind.)
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Is.25:8 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? Hos.13:14.
Notice Paul is quoting the Old Testament in verse 54 and 55. The resurrection Paul is writing about is the resurrection of Isaiah and Hosea. Isaiah and Hosea know nothing of any resurrection to the heavenly places. The resurrection of 1Cor.15 is to the earth. Please read these OT passages. (Blah, blah, blah. Paul told you that this rapture was a "mystery" given "by the word of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:51, 1 Thessalonians 4:15) and you are trying to tell me that it is found in the OT just because he quoted the "saying" about victory over death? Wow.)
So 1Cor.15 is like the Romans piece I posted this morning on face book. Both Romans and Corinthians have continuing truths in Paul, that glorious truth that Christ is the only sin bearer through whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, and justification BUT Romans and Corinthians were written BEFORE The Mystery of Ephesians was revealed to him. (Yep, I believe you.)
For further reading, I recommend my book The Appearing, sorry brother for this commercial but it's only $10 for the pdf and the $10 goes towards my little ministry to the Lord; www.acts28.net/publications.html
4. What is the "rapture" of the body of Christ if not 1 Thes. 4 or 1 Cor. 15?
We have already looked at the resurrection in 1Cor.15 which is to the earth. The Trumpet of Corinthians, Thessalonians, Matt.24 and Revelation is the same last Trumpet of the 7. (Proof? You're saying the mystery rapture of 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians 4 is actually not a mystery? Proof?)
The rapture is the hope of the believers during Acts, it is not the hope of the church which is His Body. The "rapture" is purely Old Testament (What a quack.). Again, you will find some clues to this on the link above, www.acts28.net/publications.html
Our hope is among those things which were hidden in God and the rapture sure isn't anything hidden in God, we find it in Exodus 19 (and 24:9-11) (That is a big, fat LOL). How can something belonging to Israels typical salvation have anything to do with our calling hidden in God when Israel was delivered from Egypt?
I realize redemption "through his blood" [Christ] is found in the non-Acts epistles and also a "rapture" is hinted at, but with my current "Mid Acts" mindset I consider these things not that fully declared in Paul's non-Acts epistles. (That was all wild claims by you. No proof. However, Paul said the rapture was a "mystery" given "by the word of the Lord". Have fun with that.)
Here is a booklet which shows the post Acts letters of Paul and the continuing eternal truths of redemption; Fundamentals and The Mystery. Find it here; www.acts28.net/studies.html
The post Acts letters of Paul don’t speak about the coming of the Lord, the rapture or even the apocalypse; Revelation. These things alone indicate a great change after the Acts period letters were written. This change took place at Acts 28. Here is a chart showing the grouping of Paul’s letters around Acts 28; www.acts28.net/whatisacts28.html
The “rapture” was the hope of the Acts period. That hope was postponed at the close of the book of Acts after which The Mystery was revealed to Paul.
I know you are considering some things not brought out from the mid acts teachings, but if the Berean spirit I believe prompted you to write, so I believe it will help you to search and see if these things be so. (AMEN! Praise de lawd! I have searched the scriptures and I found out that it ain't so! Amen!)
STAR WARS: Fellowinheritance with the saints or "may the force be with you" for the body of Christ?
Quote from Brian Kelson of Acts 28.net, one of the "Yoda" teachers.
"......the hope was the promised made to Israel's fathers. Not in any recorded address, or in any letter written during Acts did Paul address a company called the church which is His Body with Christ as Head and blessings in the heavenly places."
Even among the fellow brethren that believe that the body of Christ started with Paul in Acts 9 also teach that the body of Christ has a "heavenly calling" or a "heavenly hope" and that our inheritance is out in outer space somewhere. They think that Christ raptures us to the air to send us out into outer space and tells us "may the force be with you". At which point the "Yoda" telling you all this is saying that we float around in outer space for eternity.
Not so! Let's examine this heresy as "Yoda" has delivered it to us.
Heresy 1.) The body of Christ has a heavenly hope and calling.
That much is true, but the dispensational-Yoda-guru that has just made that statement is trying to imply that this means that the body of Christ spends eternity in outer space rather than Christ's kingdom on earth. The book of Hebrews is written doctrinally to tribulation saints and the author said that they had a "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1). Saying that the body of Christ is the only one with a "heavenly calling" is heresy.
The New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, it is HEAVENLY and it is in HEAVENLY PLACES, it is a "HEAVENLY CALLING".
Heresy 2.) Ephesians 3:1 says that we have spiritual blessings in heavenly places so therefore the body of Christ has a distinct calling from Israel. We are also told in Colossians to set our affection on things above and not on the things of the earth. (That is floating around in outer space with the blessings, the blessings may be a new space ship, UFO, or lightsaber for all believers.) May the force be with you.
What Ephesians 3:1 says is true, we have spiritual blessings in heavenly places, but that is where the New Jerusalem is. Did you know that kingdom saints have blessings in heavenly places?
Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 6:
[19] Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
[20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
The kingdom gospel believers are told the same thing, that is blessings in heavenly places. That is not a signature attribute to the hope of the body of Christ (church age believers).
Heresy 3.) Philippians 3:20-21 says that our conversation is in heaven and Ephesians 2:6 says we are seated in heavenly places. The hope of the body of Christ is floating around in heaven.
Let's examine this proof passage that "Yoda" has given us. Accept let's get the context and full meaning of the passages (gasp!).
Ephesians 2:
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 3:
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Both passages are saying that you are seated in heaven and that our conversation is in heaven because we are "IN CHRIST". We are joined unto the Lord as one spirit and one body (1 Corinthians 6:15-17) and so wherever Christ is, we are there too. He is the Head and we are the body (Ephesians 1:22-23, 5:23-32). We are seated in heavenly places because we are "IN CHRIST", not because we are spacemen.
OUR HOPE IS THE NEW JERUSALEM. THE BODY OF CHRIST IS COMING TO THE EARTH.
Ephesians 1:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
When the body of Christ is in heaven and the kingdom saints have made it through the tribulation Christ will gather all them together in one. We have obtained the inheritance of Christ and Israel, the New Jerusalem and kingdom.
Ephesians 2:
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Now we are not strangers from the covenants of promise and we are fellowcitizens with the kingdom saints because we are in Christ.
Ephesians 3:
[1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
[4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
[5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
[6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Now as members of the body of Christ we are fellowheirs with Christ and Israel, that is the New Jerusalem and kingdom.
Below are three passages of scripture that all say that doing the Lord's work gives you extra rewards and inheritance in the kingdom.
Ephesians 5:
[1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
2 Timothy 2:
[9] Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
[10] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Colossians 3:
[23] And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
[24] Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
[25] But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
That lines up with the judgment seat of Christ. When a member of the body of Christ dies in the church age he is in heaven at the judgment seat of Christ where Christ shows him what he did for the Lord and what "sort" of work it was. Christ shows him what inheritance he will get in the kingdom.
1 Corinthians 3:
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
[16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[17] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
[18] Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
[19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[20] And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
[21] Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
[22] Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[23] And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Now here is the interesting part......
1 Corinthians 6:
[1] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
The rewards we get are high positions of reigning with Christ in His kingdom. We could earn the rewards of a position above even the angels as members of the body of Christ. The interesting part is that there will be a kingdom on earth, but there will also be a new heaven created as well (Revelation 21:1).
Now as members of the body of Christ we will be above the angels as we just saw in 1 Corinthians 6. There will be a new heaven and a new earth and the angels can go from heaven to earth.
Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
As members of the body of Christ we can have a position above the angels and the angles go back and forth from heaven to earth. Therefore the members of the body of Christ will probably be able to do the same thing. We may take part in the kingdom of Christ in heaven and earth.
The point of this post is just to say that Christ gets the New Jerusalem and the kingdom on the earth. How can His body live with Him and reign with Him and "ever be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:17) if we are not in the New Jerusalem with Him? Why would the body spend eternity away from the Head?
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
"......the hope was the promised made to Israel's fathers. Not in any recorded address, or in any letter written during Acts did Paul address a company called the church which is His Body with Christ as Head and blessings in the heavenly places."
Even among the fellow brethren that believe that the body of Christ started with Paul in Acts 9 also teach that the body of Christ has a "heavenly calling" or a "heavenly hope" and that our inheritance is out in outer space somewhere. They think that Christ raptures us to the air to send us out into outer space and tells us "may the force be with you". At which point the "Yoda" telling you all this is saying that we float around in outer space for eternity.
Not so! Let's examine this heresy as "Yoda" has delivered it to us.
Heresy 1.) The body of Christ has a heavenly hope and calling.
That much is true, but the dispensational-Yoda-guru that has just made that statement is trying to imply that this means that the body of Christ spends eternity in outer space rather than Christ's kingdom on earth. The book of Hebrews is written doctrinally to tribulation saints and the author said that they had a "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1). Saying that the body of Christ is the only one with a "heavenly calling" is heresy.
The New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, it is HEAVENLY and it is in HEAVENLY PLACES, it is a "HEAVENLY CALLING".
Heresy 2.) Ephesians 3:1 says that we have spiritual blessings in heavenly places so therefore the body of Christ has a distinct calling from Israel. We are also told in Colossians to set our affection on things above and not on the things of the earth. (That is floating around in outer space with the blessings, the blessings may be a new space ship, UFO, or lightsaber for all believers.) May the force be with you.
What Ephesians 3:1 says is true, we have spiritual blessings in heavenly places, but that is where the New Jerusalem is. Did you know that kingdom saints have blessings in heavenly places?
Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 6:
[19] Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
[20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
The kingdom gospel believers are told the same thing, that is blessings in heavenly places. That is not a signature attribute to the hope of the body of Christ (church age believers).
Heresy 3.) Philippians 3:20-21 says that our conversation is in heaven and Ephesians 2:6 says we are seated in heavenly places. The hope of the body of Christ is floating around in heaven.
Let's examine this proof passage that "Yoda" has given us. Accept let's get the context and full meaning of the passages (gasp!).
Ephesians 2:
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 3:
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Both passages are saying that you are seated in heaven and that our conversation is in heaven because we are "IN CHRIST". We are joined unto the Lord as one spirit and one body (1 Corinthians 6:15-17) and so wherever Christ is, we are there too. He is the Head and we are the body (Ephesians 1:22-23, 5:23-32). We are seated in heavenly places because we are "IN CHRIST", not because we are spacemen.
OUR HOPE IS THE NEW JERUSALEM. THE BODY OF CHRIST IS COMING TO THE EARTH.
Ephesians 1:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
When the body of Christ is in heaven and the kingdom saints have made it through the tribulation Christ will gather all them together in one. We have obtained the inheritance of Christ and Israel, the New Jerusalem and kingdom.
Ephesians 2:
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Now we are not strangers from the covenants of promise and we are fellowcitizens with the kingdom saints because we are in Christ.
Ephesians 3:
[1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
[4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
[5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
[6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Now as members of the body of Christ we are fellowheirs with Christ and Israel, that is the New Jerusalem and kingdom.
Below are three passages of scripture that all say that doing the Lord's work gives you extra rewards and inheritance in the kingdom.
Ephesians 5:
[1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
2 Timothy 2:
[9] Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
[10] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Colossians 3:
[23] And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
[24] Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
[25] But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
That lines up with the judgment seat of Christ. When a member of the body of Christ dies in the church age he is in heaven at the judgment seat of Christ where Christ shows him what he did for the Lord and what "sort" of work it was. Christ shows him what inheritance he will get in the kingdom.
1 Corinthians 3:
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
[16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[17] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
[18] Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
[19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[20] And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
[21] Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
[22] Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[23] And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Now here is the interesting part......
1 Corinthians 6:
[1] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
The rewards we get are high positions of reigning with Christ in His kingdom. We could earn the rewards of a position above even the angels as members of the body of Christ. The interesting part is that there will be a kingdom on earth, but there will also be a new heaven created as well (Revelation 21:1).
Now as members of the body of Christ we will be above the angels as we just saw in 1 Corinthians 6. There will be a new heaven and a new earth and the angels can go from heaven to earth.
Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
As members of the body of Christ we can have a position above the angels and the angles go back and forth from heaven to earth. Therefore the members of the body of Christ will probably be able to do the same thing. We may take part in the kingdom of Christ in heaven and earth.
The point of this post is just to say that Christ gets the New Jerusalem and the kingdom on the earth. How can His body live with Him and reign with Him and "ever be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4:17) if we are not in the New Jerusalem with Him? Why would the body spend eternity away from the Head?
--Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
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