"Thanks Hoss, Jacob Arminius and John Calvin were outstanding theologians in their time (1500 to 1600 AD) with opposing belief systems, ideas and explanations concerning salvation.
I'm no expert on either, but I do understand their points and differences.
All brothers in Christ generally fit into one or the other belief system of thinking. Modern theologians say that there is no other views of interpretation concerning salvation, either GRACE or WORKS, (Calvinists or Aminians).
However, I would debate that.
What I have read on your posts and in your comments, I think that you would be in line with Arminian theology, but with all the favourite Calvinistic Bible quotations :-)
Concerning salvation, one group majors on GRACE (Calvinists), the other on WORKS (Arminians), they claim that you can't amalgamate the two, it's either grace or works and nothing in between.
My theology is different to theirs and it is updated and taught by the Spirit of Lord Jesus, so I claim :-)
You said, "I believe that a person is "in Christ" and becomes a son of God after he puts his/her faith in the gospel of the grace of God (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Acts 20:24). We are then "chosen" because we are "in him" according to Eph. 1:4. We got out of Adam and into Christ (1 Cor. 15:22)."
I think that a son was always a son and will always be a son. A man can never become a son to someone by his will, choice or faith or whatever, just the same as he never can become a son to the Queen of England, no matter what he does or believes.
If we ignore and transgress that sound principle, we will end up in confusion and error.
You said, "We are then "chosen" because we are "in him". No my brother, we were chosen before we have done anything, just as it says in (Eph.1:4), BEFORE the foundation of the world.
You said,"after a sinner does that we are passed from death unto life and shall never perish (John 10:28)."
A sinner who is dead can not function in the area in which he is dead. He can not 'will' or do something to have life, that is because he is dead. (John 10:28) are the Lords children and they are not the sinners, but the saints.
You said, "I believe that Christ provided the atonement and sacrifice for the sins of the world/everyman. Christ provided that salvation and grace....but we must RECEIVE Him it will not affect us."
So then, you don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ actually died and made atonement for the sins of 'X' ?
You think that Jesus made a deal with X. If X will do his part for salvation, then Jesus will do His part for X and save him, providing X has done it properly.
It is reasonable to say that if X believes, only then he is saved and the moment he changes his mind, he is lost.
If that salvation depends on faith or believe, then the absence of that faith or belief demands the loss of that salvation.
That sounds like a pathetic untrustworthy impotent saviour, who wants to save X but can't actually do it without the permission of X.
However we look at; X's free will, it is superior to the Lords will. It looks more like the Lords will is not free, but in subjection to X's free will.
But my saviour Jesus is a lot better than that.
The Lord Jesus has chosen me before the foundation of the world to be saved, and at the appropriate time He laid down His life for me ('it is finished'), atoned and cancelled all of my sins against me and caused me to be born again, apart from me doing anything.
I now have been given the free gift of God a new life of the Spirit apart from works and I can never die again. And because I am a new creation, a new man in Christ, old things have passed away and everything is new, I now want to please my Lord and my God Jesus Christ in everything I do and live with Him for ever and ever.
Sounds to good doesn't it :-) ;-)
Eternal life as a free gift; all I can say, hallelujah! thank you thank you Jesus!"
I'll answer it section at a time so that I don't miss anything.
I don't agree with this statement....."All brothers in Christ generally fit into one or the other belief system of thinking. Modern theologians say that there is no other views of interpretation concerning salvation, either GRACE or WORKS " Arminias and Calvin may have became famous for their views on salvation, but there were people perverting the gospel by adding works MUCH before Arminias (see Galatians). Also, ever since our gospel was first revealed people have believed in salvation by grace without works. Even though I believe in salvation by grace I do not want to be associated with Calvin because he taught so much wrong stuff. I know many others that feel the same way--though I realize that a lot of people like to make you one of the other. I had rather be called a ''Ruckmanite" because that associates me with dispensationalism and believing the King James Bible--though I disagree with a number of his teachings as well.
"What I have read on your posts and in your comments, I think that you would be in line with Arminian theology, but with all the favourite Calvinistic Bible quotations " I do not know what an arminian is, but I believe in salvation without works, the freewill of man, and eternal security. What are "Calvinist Bible quotations"??? Most calvinist that I know of quote Romans chapters 8 and 9 with Ephesians 1...I don't really use those often.
"I think that a son was always a son and will always be a son. A man can never become a son to someone by his will, choice or faith or whatever, just the same as he never can become a son to the Queen of England, no matter what he does or believes. If we ignore and transgress that sound principle, we will end up in confusion and error. " I disagree, so does the Bible :) Before we get saved we are the "children of disobedience", the "children of wrath", and are of our "father the devil" (Eph. 2:1-3 John 8:44). We were NOT sins of God. Thankfully we were "ADOPTED" by God the Father thanks to His Son, Jesus Christ.
John 1:
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Romans 8:
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Galatians 4:
[3] Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
[4] But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[5] To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
[7] Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
[8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Notice that getting the power to become the sons of God in John 1:11-13 is dependent on receiving Christ by believing on Him. If you 'receive him not' then you do not become a son of God.
Notice in Romans 8:14-16 that being a son of God is conditioned on having the Holy Spirit: and getting the Holy Spirit is condition on if we trust Christ and believe the gospel according to Ephesians 1:13...."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, " Also see Galatians 3:1-3. Also notice the word "ADOPTION".
Notice in Galatians 4:3-9 that it is about "ADOPTION". The whole point of the passage is that we have not always been the son of God and that we were not even known of God until we got saved. "after that ye have known God, OR RATHER ARE KNOWN OF GOD ".
Until we trust Christ and believe the gospel we are NOT sons of God, we do NOT have the Holy Spirit, and God does NOT know us. We must be adopted, we have not always been sons. That is not "confusion and error", that is plain scripture.
"You said, "We are then "chosen" because we are "in him". No my brother, we were chosen before we have done anything, just as it says in (Eph.1:4), BEFORE the foundation of the world. " No we were not chosen before the foundation of the world....you left out "IN HIM".
Ephesians 4:1 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
It did NOT say "he hath chosen us before the foundation of the world"--you left out the "in him". Being in Christ is the condition on being chosen before the foundation of the world. Christ is eternal and we are not--the only way to be chosen in eternity past is to get into Christ.
Ephesians 1:4 does not say that we were in Christ before the foundation of the world--before we got saved we were "IN ADAM" not Christ.
THE CONDITION OF MAN BEFORE PUTTING FAITH IN CHRIST:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Ephesians 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
WE ARE THEN "CHOSEN" AND "CALLED" BY HEARING THE GOSPEL AND BELIEVING IT:
2 Thessalonians 2:
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
"A sinner who is dead can not function in the area in which he is dead. He can not 'will' or do something to have life, that is because he is dead. (John 10:28) are the Lords children and they are not the sinners, but the saints. " What? Are you saying that because man is dead in sins that some how that means he cannot believe the gospel? If that is the case then that means that nobody has ever been saved because we are all "dead in sins" for "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" according to Romans 3 and Ephesians 2. The problem is that what you are saying is nowhere in the Bible. Being dead in sins does not effect our mental abilities to believe facts. Common sense that God created man with would allow him to accept a free ticket out of hell. God did not create man to be so stupid that he can't believe the truth. Truth can either be accpted or rejected.
2 Thessalonians 2:
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
These people COULD HAVE believed the truth, but they didn't and so God will judge them for it.
Anyone who hears the word of God can have faith and believe!!!!
John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
John 5:
[46] For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[47] But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Galatians 3:
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
"So then, you don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ actually died and made atonement for the sins of 'X' ?
You think that Jesus made a deal with X. If X will do his part for salvation, then Jesus will do His part for X and save him, providing X has done it properly. " Not at all. Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the gospel that saves and all who believe on that and trust Him are saved (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Eph. 1:13). Christ tasted death for everyman, died for the sins for both lost/saved people, and anyone that hears the word of God and believes on Him will be saved. The atonement is for ALL (2 Cor. 5:14-19, Heb. 2:9, 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Tim. 2:4-6, 1 Tim. 4:10) and ALL who receive the gift will be saved (John 1:11-13).
Believing is NOT a work so there is no "deal" involved: Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Therefore we do not have to "do" anything to be saved as far as works are concerned.
Salvation is a "free gift" (Rom. 3:24, 5:15, 5:16, 5:18, 6:23, Eph. 2:8) and what can you do when someone offers you a "free gift"??? You can either REJECT IT (2 Thes. 2:10-12) or you can RECEIVE IT (Rom. 10:17, John 1:11-13).
"It is reasonable to say that if X believes, only then he is saved and the moment he changes his mind, he is lost. If that salvation depends on faith or believe, then the absence of that faith or belief demands the loss of that salvation." NO! That is contrary to what the Bible teaches about eternal security. Once we believe the gospel (freewill) we are then SEALED WITH THE SPIRIT until the rapture of the Body of Christ, the day of redemption.
Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory....And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
2 Timothy 2:
[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
If you believe the gospel then it does not matter what happens after that: you can lose your faith in Christ but He will not deny you because you are part of His body! We are "justified from all things" and "forgiven all trespasses"--including the sin of unbelief (Acts 13:38-39, Col. 2:13, Eph. 4:32). "IF WE BELIEVE NOT, YET HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF" (2 Tim. 2:13).
"That
sounds like a pathetic untrustworthy impotent saviour, who wants to
save X but can't actually do it without the permission of X. " What Christ WANTS is for all to come to repentance--but all don't. That has nothing to do with the trustworthiness of Christ, that has to do with the sinfulness and arrogance of men that won't repent.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Just because Christ wants all men to be saved does not mean that He will save people for no reason. Christ set up a perfect plan of salvation and if they reject it He will throw them into hell and laugh at them.
2 Thessalonians 2:
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Psalms 2:
[1] Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psalms 37:
[9] For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
[10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
[11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
[12] The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
[13] The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
Psalms 59:
[5] Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah.
[6] They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city.
[7] Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear?
[8] But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.
"However we look at; X's free will, it is superior to the Lords will. It looks more like the Lords will is not free, but in subjection to X's free will. But my saviour Jesus is a lot better than that. " The Lord is not in subjection to man. The Lord set up a plan of salvation and man rejects it and so the Lord throws him into hell--how does that make the Lord in subjection to anybody?
"The Lord Jesus has chosen me before the foundation of the world to be saved, and at the appropriate time He laid down His life for me ('it is finished'), atoned and cancelled all of my sins against me and caused me to be born again, apart from me doing anything.
I now have been given the free gift of God a new life of the Spirit apart from works and I can never die again. And because I am a new creation, a new man in Christ, old things have passed away and everything is new, I now want to please my Lord and my God Jesus Christ in everything I do and live with Him for ever and ever." No comment, you can see why I disagree with you on that...I gave the scriptures why.
Salvation is a free gift without works and once we believe the gospel we are saved forever, but God did not make anybody get saved.
Thank you for the comment and I hope that helps! --bro. Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
Well, brother Hoss, I'm not sure where to start without making a lengthy comment.
ReplyDeleteI have read your post-comment a few times and I think I know where we differ.
You have said that you believe in salvation without works.
That should mean that X will be saved, born again from his spiritually dead state without any requirement needed of X.
This salvation is the total work of the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
The moment there are any requirements needed from X to be saved, then X is saved because he has fulfilled those requirements, which is called WORKS! Regardless what those requirements are, even a twinkle of an eye would be works.
This is the sound wisdom of the Lord, and any other explanation is not true.
Thanks again for the comments, I enjoy it.
ReplyDeleteThe only requirement for salvation is BELIEVING: which is plainly said to NOT be a work.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Did you notice the "worketh not, but believeth".....which means believing is not working--work is not belief. Beleiving is plainly said to be a requirement (John 1:7, John 1:12-13, John 3:15-18, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:29, John 6:35, John 6:40, John 6:47, John 8:24, John 11:25-26, John 12:46, John 20:31, Acts 4:12, Acts 4:32-33, Acts 5:14, Acts 8:37, Acts 10:43-45, Acts 11:17, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 13:38-39, Acts 16:30-31, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 3:16-17, Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 4:32, Philippians 3:3-9, Colossians 1:13-14, Colossians 2:6-23, 1 Thessaloninas 4:14, 1 Timothy 1:16, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Timothy 1:9, Galatians 2:16-21, Galatians 3:1-26, Romans 3:10-31, Romans 4:1-25, Romans 5:1-21, Romans 8:8, Romans 10:1-5, Romans 11:6, 1 Corinthians 1:17-21,1 Corinthians 2:1-2, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Titus 3:5, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:5, 1 John 5:10, 1 John 5:13)
And believing is plainly said to not be a work. Also Ephesians 2:8-9 says that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works--separating faith from works.
Do you see what I mean? (more like what the Bible says?) :)
--bro. Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
Hoss, I was expecting an amen from you, preferably in big letters:-)
ReplyDeleteOK then, If there is something required from X for his salvation, then that something is considered a works, he doesn't get the salvation till he has DONE something for it, and that is plainly called works.
Now that deserves an AMEN!
Yes, I believe that in the Bible there is only one salvation which is a total FREE gift of God, by grace alone lest any man may boast.
Hoss, this is important to remember, any other salvation is by WORKS!
Yes, you have read rightly. I also believe that a man is saved by works and I will demonstrate that if you are patient with me.
But first the salvation which is a free GIFT from the Lord by GRACE alone, and works must be excluded, or grace is no longer grace. It must be the free GIFT-salvation and not the works-salvation.
It starts first with Adam.
Adam received the FREE gift of life.
Once he was NOT, and then he was; that's the first free gift of God, 'life' for His son Adam (Luke 3:38).
Now Adam didn't do anything, he didn't have to believe, or apply faith, or ask or whatever to be born. The Lord gave him that life as a free gift by grace alone.
In Adam all have died and all have to be made alive again, therefore the Lord Jesus said, 'unless a man is born again he can not see or enter......'.
Now that born again life is that which is a free gift of God by grace and not by works. It is spiritual life from the dead and we can not do anything to have it.
As the Scriptures said, 'the dead shall hear His voice and those who hear will live' (John 5:25). It is just as the Lord Jesus has said, 'The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit' (John 3:8).
Well I have to disagree, the Bible does not support what you are saying. You said "OK then, If there is something required from X for his salvation, then that something is considered a work"......by who's definition?
ReplyDeleteI think what you are trying to say is that you define believing as a work. However,
the Bible says that believing is NOT a work and so I am going with the Bible
definition--that believing is not a work.
Romans 4:5 *****But to him that worketh not, but believeth***** on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Did you notice the "worketh not, but believeth".....which means believing is not working--work is not belief. Beleiving is plainly said to be a requirement
(John 1:7, John 1:12-13, John 3:15-18, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:29, John 6:35, John 6:40, John 6:47, John 8:24, John 11:25-26, John 12:46, John 20:31, Acts 4:12, Acts 4:32-33, Acts 5:14, Acts 8:37, Acts 10:43-45, Acts 11:17, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 13:38-39, Acts 16:30-31, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 3:16-17, Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 4:32, Philippians 3:3-9, Colossians 1:13-14, Colossians 2:6-23, 1 Thessaloninas 4:14, 1 Timothy 1:16, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Timothy 1:9, Galatians 2:16-21, Galatians 3:1-26, Romans 3:10-31, Romans 4:1-25, Romans 5:1-21, Romans 8:8, Romans 10:1-5, Romans 11:6, 1 Corinthians 1:17-21,1 Corinthians 2:1-2, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Titus 3:5, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:5, 1 John 5:10, 1 John 5:13)
And believing is plainly said to not be a work. Also Ephesians 2:8-9 says that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works--separating faith from works.
Is there any reason why you define believing as a work? Thanks, --bro. Hoss
"By who's definition? "
ReplyDeleteBy the definition of the Spirit of God, second by sound intelligence and thirdly by the Bible (the Word of God).
Believe me my brother, I do know the Bible too, just like anyone else. Perhaps I can do better, because I know the author of the Bible :-) He is the one who teaches me everything and leads me into ALL the truth just as He has promised.
Yes, that,s right, 'believing is not a work', as long as it stays believing, just like faith is not a work as long as it stays faith.
It only becomes a work when it becomes the catalyst of that salvation.
Believing or faith without works is DEAD, it's useless, just as James has said, therefore it's works.
But keep in mind, I do believe that a man is saved by believing, faith and doing etc. but that is not the salvation which we are talking about now.
At this moment we are talking about the new birth salvation, to be saved from staying spirituality dead unto to a spiritual life, born again.
I claim that the new birth is the ONLY one salvation in the Bible which is a free gift of God by grace alone and without believing, faith or trust.
It is just like the free gift! If you have to do something for the free gift, then it wasn't free at all.
So then again, if X must believe for a gift, then that gift is not free, he has earned it with his belief.
If X doesn't believe, he doesn't get it. It's as simple as that.
Can you see how belief becomes the work?
If you like, in my next comment I will demonstrate that a man is saved by works, belief and faith and apart from believing, faith and doing is no salvation.
My reply was too long to fit in the comments. AGAIN :)
ReplyDelete(I made a blog post with my reply)
Brother Hoss,I admire your patience with this arrogant person Paul G.I honestly could not put up with such boasting religious person.
ReplyDeleteRoberto G.