Fundamentals of King James Onlyism
Below is my critique of an email I got from a brother in response to my post on the attributes of the word of God.
Mr. S. :The point is: God delivered His message to mankind in those 3 languages (Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew)...and from those 3 languages should all the translations be derived from to be most accurate.
Below is my critique of an email I got from a brother in response to my post on the attributes of the word of God.
Mr. S. :The point is: God delivered His message to mankind in those 3 languages (Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew)...and from those 3 languages should all the translations be derived from to be most accurate.
HOSS: That is your premise, not mine. I do not hold to the "preserved original languages only" (POLO) view. I believe that the word of God can be in any language that is capable of bearing the content of the original autographs....some languages can't do that as seen below by Dr. Dave Reese.
""There are no pure translations available in the Philippine major languages and dialects. Every effort (due to lack of linguistic ability in English and/or the target language) has introduced more errors. Some "KJVers" have tried it, but my observation has been that the Filipino pastors who know the KJB, laugh at their pitiful mistakes. One effort produced a Bible that said to the Filipino that when anyone, male or female became Christians --now, right at that moment became little male sons. John 1:12 certainly does teach we are "sons of God" but the English meaning is far from saying all males and females are right now little boys. Translation is a difficult task! Some languages don't even have a word or a concept for "believe". Try to say "believe on The Lord Jesus Christ" when there is no idea of "believe" in the language. How about teaching "the lamb of God" in a place where there have never been "lambs" or even pictures of one? You might as well be talking about unicorns to a Georgia cotton picker."" --Dr. Dave Reese
The biggest problem with the POLO view is that we don't know that the original autographs penned by the apostles were written in Greek (though we are pretty sure that the OT was written in Hebrew). The "original GREEK" is only a theory. Paul knew at least two languages (Acts 21-22) and he wrote and communicated with all kinds of people distributing the word of God (1 Thes. 2:13). Paul was commissioned to all nations for the obedience of faith, which requires the word of God (Rom. 1:5, 10:17, 16:25-26). Apollos was "mighty in the scriptures" and lived in Alexandria, he could have distributed the word of God to those in Egypt. There is also the Old Latin (which was used on the cross, John 19:20) which the apostles and prophets very likely could have used. Greek is over rated.....
Besides that, even IF Greek was what Matthew-Revelation were originally written in, that would still not mean much. The converts of Peter and Paul were speaking in tongues (languages, 1 Cor. 12-14) for YEARS until the completion of the scriptures (1 Cor. 13, http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/blah-blah-blah-is-that-really-holyghost.html). The tongues were a supplement for scripture. The gift gave "God breathed" words to the speakers and hearers......this would have gotten wrote down in those different languages.
Also, Paul said that he got the gospel to the whole world in just the 1st century......(which would have gotten the word of God to the whole world as well)
Romans 1:
[1] Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
[2] (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
[3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
[4] And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
[5] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 10:
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 15:
[13] Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
[14] And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
[15] Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
[16] That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Romans 16:
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[26] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Paul was supposed to preach the gospel to all nations and he was the special apostle to the Gentiles (Eph.3:1, Gal. 2:7-8). He preached to all nations so that they could be obedient to the faith (believe the gospel, 1 Cor. 15:1-4) and you could not be obedient to the faith without the word of God (Rom. 10:17, 1 Pet. 1:23).
Paul got the gospel to the world in the 1st century.....
Colossians 1:
[5] For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
[6] Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
So Paul's preaching, the speaking and tongues, and the copyists have all been God's instruments in getting the scripture in other languages. We don't know that our Greek manuscripts are any "more accurate" than any other language manuscript. The Old Latin, Old Syriac, Coptic, Gallic, and Gothic are all very old (older than a lot of Greek manuscripts) and there is no reason to believe that there is anything special about the Greek. One of the attributes of the word of God is that it is not bound (2 Tim. 2:9).
Read these posts
1. What do you believe about the Bible?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/1-what-do-you-believe-about-bible.html
2. How did God communicate, provide and preserve His words?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/2-how-did-god-communicate-provide-and.html
3. What do you believe about the King James Bible as compared to other translations, Greek texts, Lectionaries, etc?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/3-what-do-you-believe-about-king-james.html
Attributes of the living word of God.
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/attributes-of-living-word-of-god.html
Psalms 138:2. Magnification of God's word.
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/psalms-1382-magnification-of-gods-word.html
Besides that, even IF Greek was what Matthew-Revelation were originally written in, that would still not mean much. The converts of Peter and Paul were speaking in tongues (languages, 1 Cor. 12-14) for YEARS until the completion of the scriptures (1 Cor. 13, http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/blah-blah-blah-is-that-really-holyghost.html). The tongues were a supplement for scripture. The gift gave "God breathed" words to the speakers and hearers......this would have gotten wrote down in those different languages.
Also, Paul said that he got the gospel to the whole world in just the 1st century......(which would have gotten the word of God to the whole world as well)
Romans 1:
[1] Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
[2] (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
[3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
[4] And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
[5] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 10:
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 15:
[13] Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
[14] And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
[15] Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
[16] That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Romans 16:
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[26] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Paul was supposed to preach the gospel to all nations and he was the special apostle to the Gentiles (Eph.3:1, Gal. 2:7-8). He preached to all nations so that they could be obedient to the faith (believe the gospel, 1 Cor. 15:1-4) and you could not be obedient to the faith without the word of God (Rom. 10:17, 1 Pet. 1:23).
Paul got the gospel to the world in the 1st century.....
Colossians 1:
[5] For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
[6] Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
So Paul's preaching, the speaking and tongues, and the copyists have all been God's instruments in getting the scripture in other languages. We don't know that our Greek manuscripts are any "more accurate" than any other language manuscript. The Old Latin, Old Syriac, Coptic, Gallic, and Gothic are all very old (older than a lot of Greek manuscripts) and there is no reason to believe that there is anything special about the Greek. One of the attributes of the word of God is that it is not bound (2 Tim. 2:9).
Read these posts
1. What do you believe about the Bible?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/1-what-do-you-believe-about-bible.html
2. How did God communicate, provide and preserve His words?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/2-how-did-god-communicate-provide-and.html
3. What do you believe about the King James Bible as compared to other translations, Greek texts, Lectionaries, etc?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/3-what-do-you-believe-about-king-james.html
Attributes of the living word of God.
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/attributes-of-living-word-of-god.html
Psalms 138:2. Magnification of God's word.
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/psalms-1382-magnification-of-gods-word.html
Mr. S :That (Revelation) was delivered ONCE! Not again and again in different languages! God did not deliver His revelation again to the KJV translators...as the KJV only infer. Simple my friend. And where was the KJV 1611 translated from? Or the previous KJV versions for that matter? If it was translated from the "best" Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts...those should be our final authority and best source to know what God's revelation is.
HOSS: Actually, God was giving "God breathed" (Bible corrector cliche) words as a supplement to written scripture through the gift of tongues (which ceased, 1 Cor. 13, http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/blah-blah-blah-is-that-really-holyghost.html). So He actually was giving His revelation "again and again" which would have gotten wrote down in by the hearers of those tongues. Though this was not occurring past the completion of the scriptures.
Inspiration is God giving someone supernatural understanding of what He wants to convey (Job 32:8) This is referred to as "moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Pet. 1:21).
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Copies of scripture (non-originals) are still called "scripture" and ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim. 3:15-16) and we are told to live by it.
2 Timothy 3:
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Therefore God is still preserving His word through inspiration (if not than our scripture is not "holy" and IS the word of men.....but Paul said that it was the word of God and holy, 1 Thes. 2:13). Inspiration of scripture is not some magical thing where God takes control of a person and forces them to write down what He wants.....it is simply God giving the spirit in a man understanding (Job 32:8). That is how God preserves scripture so that it is STILL the word of God (not the word of men) and it is STILL "holy" (1 Thes. 2:13, 2 Tim. 3:15-16). Man is NOT the preserver NOR the author of scripture. Both are what God does!
2 Timothy 3:[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Psalms 12:
[6] The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
[7] Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
So yes, God did inspire the KJV translators just like He did Paul, Moses, etc.
How do I know that the KJV is a fulfillment of Psalms 12:7 (preservation)???? I know it because "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27). And "......the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thes. 2:13) God's people (true believers) will hear God's words and know them. The King James Only position is truly a matter of faith, not human reason or logic. I can't prove that the original autographs were inspired, much less the Book I have in my hand. Believing the Bible is a FAITH position......"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:17). I do have the following evidence that the King James Bible is God's preserved word.
1.) It gives more honor to Jesus Christ, His Deity, and His scriptures than any other book I have came across.
2.) The Catholic church and liberals don't like it. ;)
3.) It does not tone down condemnation on sin.
Now for Mr. S's questions.
"where was the KJV 1611 translated from? Or the previous KJV versions for that matter? If it was translated from the "best" Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts...those should be our final authority and best source to know what God's revelation is."
The KJB came from Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, German, and other previous translations and copies.
Where was the word of God before 1611?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/where-was-word-of-god-before-1611.html
KJB Inspiration (quote)
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/kjb-inspiration-quote.html
We cannot know for sure (EXACTLY) where the King James Bible and the early versions came from. That was 403 years ago (or longer) and so all the evidence they had is not going to be available today.
Also notice how Mr. S repeatedly said "best" texts and "best" source. Does Mr. S believe in perfect preservation as spoke of in Ps. 12:6-7, Isa. 40:8, Matt. 5:18, Matt. 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, 1 Pet. 1:23-25, and 2 Tim. 3:15-17???? I am not so sure that he does. The Bible doesn't speak of "best scripture", it talks about "THE HOLY SCRIPTURE".
HOSS: Actually, God was giving "God breathed" (Bible corrector cliche) words as a supplement to written scripture through the gift of tongues (which ceased, 1 Cor. 13, http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/blah-blah-blah-is-that-really-holyghost.html). So He actually was giving His revelation "again and again" which would have gotten wrote down in by the hearers of those tongues. Though this was not occurring past the completion of the scriptures.
Inspiration is God giving someone supernatural understanding of what He wants to convey (Job 32:8) This is referred to as "moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Pet. 1:21).
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Copies of scripture (non-originals) are still called "scripture" and ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim. 3:15-16) and we are told to live by it.
2 Timothy 3:
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Therefore God is still preserving His word through inspiration (if not than our scripture is not "holy" and IS the word of men.....but Paul said that it was the word of God and holy, 1 Thes. 2:13). Inspiration of scripture is not some magical thing where God takes control of a person and forces them to write down what He wants.....it is simply God giving the spirit in a man understanding (Job 32:8). That is how God preserves scripture so that it is STILL the word of God (not the word of men) and it is STILL "holy" (1 Thes. 2:13, 2 Tim. 3:15-16). Man is NOT the preserver NOR the author of scripture. Both are what God does!
2 Timothy 3:[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Psalms 12:
[6] The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
[7] Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
So yes, God did inspire the KJV translators just like He did Paul, Moses, etc.
How do I know that the KJV is a fulfillment of Psalms 12:7 (preservation)???? I know it because "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27). And "......the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thes. 2:13) God's people (true believers) will hear God's words and know them. The King James Only position is truly a matter of faith, not human reason or logic. I can't prove that the original autographs were inspired, much less the Book I have in my hand. Believing the Bible is a FAITH position......"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:17). I do have the following evidence that the King James Bible is God's preserved word.
1.) It gives more honor to Jesus Christ, His Deity, and His scriptures than any other book I have came across.
2.) The Catholic church and liberals don't like it. ;)
3.) It does not tone down condemnation on sin.
Now for Mr. S's questions.
"where was the KJV 1611 translated from? Or the previous KJV versions for that matter? If it was translated from the "best" Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts...those should be our final authority and best source to know what God's revelation is."
The KJB came from Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, German, and other previous translations and copies.
Where was the word of God before 1611?
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/where-was-word-of-god-before-1611.html
KJB Inspiration (quote)
http://av1611studyblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/kjb-inspiration-quote.html
We cannot know for sure (EXACTLY) where the King James Bible and the early versions came from. That was 403 years ago (or longer) and so all the evidence they had is not going to be available today.
Also notice how Mr. S repeatedly said "best" texts and "best" source. Does Mr. S believe in perfect preservation as spoke of in Ps. 12:6-7, Isa. 40:8, Matt. 5:18, Matt. 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, 1 Pet. 1:23-25, and 2 Tim. 3:15-17???? I am not so sure that he does. The Bible doesn't speak of "best scripture", it talks about "THE HOLY SCRIPTURE".
Mr. S :Yes, there are no perfect translations, not even the 1611...though again, I only use KJV myself which I believe it is still the best translation (again...far from what the Only's claim.)
HOSS: Do you believe that ANYTHING is perfect? Do you realize that you just denied the inspiration of 263 verses in the New Testament??? Around 260 verses in the NT are OT quotes. So the OT which was written in Hebrew was translated by the writers of the NT originals......which would result in at least SOME inspired translations in the originals.
OT HEBREW QUOTES--->NT LATIN, GREEK, ETC. = INSPIRED TRANSLATION
Notice that Mr. S USES a King James Bible because he "believes it is still the best". He does "use" it because it is the word of God.
HOSS: Do you believe that ANYTHING is perfect? Do you realize that you just denied the inspiration of 263 verses in the New Testament??? Around 260 verses in the NT are OT quotes. So the OT which was written in Hebrew was translated by the writers of the NT originals......which would result in at least SOME inspired translations in the originals.
OT HEBREW QUOTES--->NT LATIN, GREEK, ETC. = INSPIRED TRANSLATION
Notice that Mr. S USES a King James Bible because he "believes it is still the best". He does "use" it because it is the word of God.
Mr. S: You mentioned about other languages (and I know a few myself) and the challenge of linguists to come up with equivalent terms...yet while we are debating the KJV Only issue, millions around the world are being saved through that which is available to them.
HOSS: Well I am not sure about millions around the world getting saved, but God knows. As long as Christ and His finished work is preached, people can get saved off of it. You could sew 1 Cor. 15:1-4 onto a dirty sock and someone could get saved off of it.....but that would not mean anything as far as the status of the dirty sock.
HOSS: Well I am not sure about millions around the world getting saved, but God knows. As long as Christ and His finished work is preached, people can get saved off of it. You could sew 1 Cor. 15:1-4 onto a dirty sock and someone could get saved off of it.....but that would not mean anything as far as the status of the dirty sock.
Mr. S: I don't care for the NIV...and its hundreds of omissions, but I cannot throw it in the trash as suggested by some Only's because whatever is there (and many verses are just like KVJ or very close to) it is just as much "words of God" as in any other printed page. Obviously, I strive to have God's word as complete and as accurate as possible (and that's why I reach out to the original languages.)
HOSS: So a book that professes to be a "Holy Bible" when it is NOT should not be thrown away???? A book that has a lie on the very cover should not be thrown away? Read Jeremiah 23 where God says that He will bring judgment on those that "perverted the words of the living God". God takes those who pervert His words very seriously, in the law dispensation they were to be killed! (Deuteronomy 13) And under the gospel of the kingdom, tribulation doctrine, people lose their salvation for perverting God's word! (Rev. 22)
The NIV makes Christ a liar, says He has origins, says Joseph is His father, takes our His blood atonement, takes out His faith, takes out His dispensations, takes out His scriptures, takes our His ascension, takes out His omnipresence, His method of Bible study, the command to study, and more! If you have an NIV you can take it in your backyard and shoot it. If you meet any NIV translators tell them I said it.
HOSS: So a book that professes to be a "Holy Bible" when it is NOT should not be thrown away???? A book that has a lie on the very cover should not be thrown away? Read Jeremiah 23 where God says that He will bring judgment on those that "perverted the words of the living God". God takes those who pervert His words very seriously, in the law dispensation they were to be killed! (Deuteronomy 13) And under the gospel of the kingdom, tribulation doctrine, people lose their salvation for perverting God's word! (Rev. 22)
The NIV makes Christ a liar, says He has origins, says Joseph is His father, takes our His blood atonement, takes out His faith, takes out His dispensations, takes out His scriptures, takes our His ascension, takes out His omnipresence, His method of Bible study, the command to study, and more! If you have an NIV you can take it in your backyard and shoot it. If you meet any NIV translators tell them I said it.
Mr. S: By the way...I cooperated with a Bearing Precious Seed team in the translation of the Portuguese New Testament, and I was invited to the release of the entire Bible in Sao Paulo, Brazil where I was invited to the platform to close the event in prayer.
Have a blessed day."
HOSS: That is good, more power to you. Have a blessed day as well. --bro. Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
HOSS: That is good, more power to you. Have a blessed day as well. --bro. Eli "Hoss" Caldwell
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