Hi Hoss,
If you will agree to read my study on faith and works in God's plan of salvation with an open mind....
But frankly I don't have too much confidence in your open mindedness. Let me tell you why.
I had written that my paper "The Differences Between the Day of the Lord and the Tribulation" proved that the day of the Lord followed the tribulation. Rather than ask me about that paper your responds was, "The tribulation is God's wrath on ISRAEL, (Jer. 30:7), the tribulation saints have to be saved out of it by ENDURING to the end".
In short you dismissed my suggestion out of hand. You did so because you do not understand that the day of God's wrath is after the tribulation, and seemingly, you do not want to understand it or even consider its possibility. That, in my opinion, is the very definition of closed minded.
Sorry you feel that way. I do agree with you, the day of the Lord is after the tribulation. My point was that the tribulation is still a time of God's wrath, and because of that the Acts converts of Paul wouldn't be going through it as I showed with Rom. 5:9, 1 Thes. 1:10, 1 Thes. 5:9.
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
I read your messages you sent on being saved by completing our faith/salvation by works. I think you also stated that "Paul didn't teach salvation by believing alone". Frankly, that is a false gospel for this dispensation. Here was my reply to that.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Hoss Cartwright
From: Hoss Cartwright
Ok, I am not very pleased with your view of salvation. I just don't see the scripture to back that up. Salvation is by believing ALONE, anything other than that is a false gospel. (for this dispensation).
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:
[22] And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
[23] Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
[24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
[25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
[23] Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
[24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
[25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 13:
[38] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Our salvation is not a promise, we do not complete it by works..... "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
As soon as we believe the gospel we are "COMPLETE IN CHRIST" (Col. 2:10) and we are not "made perfect by the flesh". What you stated, I'm afraid, is a false gospel. I can't complete my salvation because it is already completed....
Colossians 2:
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
As for works, we are created in Christ made complete in Him (Eph. 2:10, Col. 2:10) UNTO good works.
Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:
[4] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
[8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
[8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
And as for Philippians 2:12, "work out your own salvation" does not mean "work to complete your salvation" nor "work for your salvation".
When I lift weights, I am WORKING OUT muscles that already exist. I already have them, but working them out will help me to be healthier, stronger, and in a better condition than I was before....--but no muscles are created.
Likewise we that are saved should "maintain good works" to be "profitable" christians because we have been "bought with a price" and we are "not our own" and should therefore "glorify God" in our body. (1 Cor. 6:15-20). As we have received Christ, so we should walk in Him (Col. 2:6). We already have our salvation ("created in Christ Jesus") and we should work that out ("unto good works") PRACTICALLY, our WALK. But as far as our spiritual standing is concerned, we are "complete in Him" and are not "made perfect by the flesh".
I hope you are trusting Christ and His finished work alone for salvation and not any supposed completing of salvation that you did yourself. Paul calls that "foolish" (Galatians 3:1-3).
Please don't take that offensively, but the gospel is not something we can negotiate on (Gal. 2:5).
Regards,
Hoss
And you are right, I am not open minded to your plan of salvation.....
Galatians 1:
[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
[10] For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
[12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
[10] For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
[12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
You are not going to be able to reconcile all dispensations into one plan of salvation, that is why we must rightly divide. You stated that we must complete our faith/salvation by works, I have plain statements by Paul saying that that is not true....
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Galatians 3:
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
I am already complete.....
Acts 13:
[38] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Romans 5:
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Colossians 2:
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
That is the only gospel for us in this dispensation. It offers justification from all things upon all that believe--something Paul said was not possible from the law of Moses. The passages of scripture you are trying to reconcile together are not going to fit together, you are presenting a false gospel. We cannot be made perfect by the flesh because we ARE COMPLETE in Christ the moment we get saved.
God doesn't deny salvation to those who believe the gospel but then never live for Him--they do not lose their salvation and it does not mean that they never got saved....it just means that they lost reward.
2 Timothy 2:
[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
I cannot make my salvation perfect because it is not mine, it is complete Christ's doing and work. I got it when I believed the gospel and trusted Christ (Eph. 1:13), I can't make Christ's finished work "perfect" or "complete"--it is already perfect and complete. I don't have to worry about my faith being perfect or complete because I am kept and justified by Christ's faith (Gal. 2:16-20, 2 Tim. 2:13).
I am to do good works BECAUSE I was "created in Christ UNTO good works" (Eph. 2:10), NOT to "complete" my salvation (Gal. 3:1-3) but to be "profitable" (Titus 3:5-14).
If you are not trusting Christ and His finished work (1 Cor. 15:1-4) than you are not saved. If you are trusting Christ alone for salvation than you cannot make that salvation "complete", it was already done.
1 Corinthians 15:
[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Acts 13:
[38] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 16:
[30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
[31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
[31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
I am not "open minded" on this issue at all, I was told not to be (Gal. 1:6-12, Acts 15:2, Gal. 2:5, Gal. 2:21, Gal. 3:1-3, 1 Thes. 2:2).
Who decides when our faith has been completed? How do we know when "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" will be "fulfilled" in our lives? What happens if we die while our salvation/faith is not yet perfect? Thankfully I don't have to worry about these issues because I rightly divide the word of truth and I know what the gospel is for this dispensation.
Regards,
--Hoss
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