Sunday, April 27, 2014

Superman fell this time.

Below is my correspondence with a man who is a staunch defender of the Alexandrian line of "bibles" (using the term loosely) and he "is not claiming to be a scholar BUT", he says he has studied Greek and some Hebrew. He thinks he is a theological Superman

Anyway, he is a fan of the New American Standard piece of garbage and he claims that the AV translators were being yellow when they translated the word "baptism" and not "immersion". Strangely enough, this chump does not go to a Southern Immersionist church but rather a Southern "Baptist" church. Ain't that something! However, ol' Scholar Jr. (i.e. the theological Superman) has fallen this time.

I believe any bible that correctly translates the Greek/Hebrew text is God’s Word. I think it is short sighted to say that the KJV is the only inspired Word of God.
As a matter of fact, the translators of the KJV intentionally did not translate the Greek word baptidzo because they did not want to make the Catholics mad. The word literally means “to immerse “. However, the Catholics sprinkle so instead of translating, they transliterated.


Interesting, but I am not sure about the accuracy of it. 

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall *baptize you with the Holy Ghost*, and with fire:

Acts 2:
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will *pour out of my Spirit* upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, *the Holy Ghost fell on all them* which heard the word.
The baptism with the Holy Ghost that filled the believers in Acts was a falling/pouring thing. Immersion is different than that.

Also the Holy Spirit baptized us into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ when we got saved (1 Cor. 12:13, Gal. 3:27, Romans 6:1-12, Col. 2:12, Eph. 2:6). That is not entirely an immersion.
The baptism with fire is a baptism into hell (Matt. 3:10-11) i.e. immersion and so is water baptism. But not every baptism is an immersion according to how the Bible uses the word and describes the action of it.

However, even if it what you said were so, a transliteration is not an error.
Thanks, Grace and Peace. -Bro. Hoss

I was speaking about the word baptidzo.In Matt. 3, both words for “baptize” come from the same root, baptidzo which means to immerse. I find it ironic that you did you use the great commission which Jesus commanded us to baptize believers. This is also baptidzo which means to immerse. The idea is still the same when the Holy Spirit is poured on us or fills us. It immerses us. In fact, every time you read the word baptize in the Scriptures, it comes from the same word which means to immerse. However, i was specifically speaking to the physical act of baptism. The act of physical baptism in accordance with the commands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is immersion. This would not sit well with the Catholics so they transliterated it. It is the truth.

And no, it is not an error, but you have got to admit that it is not the most accurate rendering of the word and that is my point. People that are KJV only do not like to admit that there are some words that, while not necessarily mistranslated, they were not given the most accurate meaning. Also, I find their backbone a bit limp when it comes to this. 

Being filled with the Holy Ghost by Him falling/pouring out does not fit the definition of immersion. (immersion is also a submersion) 

I believe that the KJB is the only complete, inspired Bible out there (oh my!). It is my authority, so I do not use any Greek/Hebrew anything (oh my!). The AV shows that a “baptism” is not always an immersion, so that is what I believe.

Your statement is not true, there is plenty of documented evidence that proves it wrong.
“As a matter of fact, the translators of the KJV intentionally did not translate the Greek word baptidzo because they did not want to make the Catholics mad.”

The best thing I have read on the matter is here http://www.kingdombaptist.org/the-meaning-of-baptism-at-the-time-of-king-james/ (I am not associated with the site, I am just recommending the article)
You have said “I believe any bible that correctly translates the Greek/Hebrew text is God’s Word. I think it is short sighted to say that the KJV is the only inspired Word of God. ” I am just short sighted then.
200+ translations in the past 100 years that render different meanings and they do end up changing doctrines in some cases can’t all be the inspired word of God. Things that are different are not the same. All “bibles” say what they do in the name of Hebrew and Greek texts that are “accurate”, but they all say different things. Everybody knows something that they think should have been translated a different way in some version, everybody can’t be right. I doubt all that many people today know Hebrew and Greek as well as the AV translators did.
You’re free to your opinion, thanks. God bless, -Brother Hoss

Just so you understand me, I did not say all “bibles”. I said those that translate correctly. And you are free to your opinion and I hope you dont take me as argumenatuve but I am not wrong about about the word baptize. I do know some hebrew and have taken biblical greek as well. I am definitely not claiming to be a scholar but I have done some indepth study on it.

 
As the article states,
““Bullokar’s English Hard Word Dictionary” of 1616 (five years after 1611!) defines “baptism” by stating:
“It commonly signifieth a dipping or washing.”


This is all Bullokar gave for “baptism” in his early dictionary. With this definition, we wonder how the AV Translators could have supposedly attempted to hide anything by using a word that was commonly taken to mean DIPPING in 1616. The Authorized Version was printed in 1611!”

I see what you are saying, but my point was just that everybody thinks they translated the Greek and Hebrew correctly. I am friends with a man in his 70′s that is a missionary, that is a “Dr.”, that is a fellow AV Only believer, and he has know Greek and Hebrew and studied it for years…..and years. (he is in his 70′s)
Anyway, there are people that know Greek and Hebrew on both sides of the fence. AV Only believers say that there is no Bible but one, the other side translates anything and slaps “Holy Bible” on the front.

My decision is not one based on tradition, I have read James White’s book, Ruckman’s books, and just about everything on both sides of the argument and then I read the AV all the time.

Thank you for your time Sir, -Hoss


God bless

LOL, note this first time I used the "R" word he gave me a "God bless"! He wanted out of that one! But I do not let people get away with it that easy......no mighty escapes the wrath of their good, christian, scholarly, brother Hoss.

Sorry brother, but I have to bug you one last time…;)

“As a matter of fact, the translators of the KJV intentionally did not translate the Greek word baptidzo because they did not want to make the Catholics mad. The word literally means “to immerse “. However, the Catholics sprinkle so instead of translating, they transliterated.”

So I assume that since this was an error in the KJV, the NASB corrects the KJV and says “John the immerser”, “he that believeth and is immersed shall be saved”, “repent and be immersed”, “by one Spirit are we all immersed into one body”, etc???
-Bro. Hoss

 By the time the NASB and other translations came along the word baptize had been used for over 300 years. It has now become a word in the english language. It was not back then, nice try though.

How old are you, you would need to be somewhere around 410 years old to know that. The versions earlier than the AV used the word “baptism”, why are the AV translators in error for doing this when “baptism” already had an established meaning? 

Try Wycliffe’s Bible (Matthew 3)

In those days John *Baptist came, and preached in the desert of Judaea, [In those days came John Baptist, preaching in the desert of Judaea,]

2 and said, Do ye penance, for the kingdom of heavens shall approach.[a] 
3 For this is he, of whom it is said by Esaias, the prophet, saying, A voice of a crier in desert, Make ye ready the ways of the Lord; make ye right the paths of him.[b]
4 And this John [Forsooth that same John] had clothing of camel’s hairs, and a girdle of skin about his loins; and his meat was honeysuckles [soothly his meat was locusts], and honey of the wood.
5 Then Jerusalem went out to him, and all Judaea, and all the country about Jordan;
6 and they were *washed of him in Jordan [and were christened of him in Jordan], acknowledging their sins.
7 But he saw many of the Pharisees and of Sadducees coming to his *baptism, and said to them, Generation of adders, who showed to you to flee from the wrath that is to come? [Soothly he seeing many of Pharisees and of Sadducees coming to his *baptism, said to them, Generations of adders, who showed to you to flee from wrath to come?]

Also Acts 2:38 “And Peter said to them, Do ye penance [Penance, he said, do ye], and each of you be *baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, into remission of your sins; and ye shall take the gift of the Holy Ghost. ”
Also 1 Corinthians 1
13 Whether Christ is parted? whether Paul was crucified for you, either ye be baptized in the name of Paul [or be ye baptized in the name of Paul]?
14 I do thankings to my God [I do thankings to God], that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 lest any man say, that ye be baptized in my name.
16 And I baptized also the house of Stephanas, but I know not, that I baptized any other [if I baptized any other].
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not in wisdom of word, that the cross of Christ be not voided away.

Your cliché that the AV translators were the ones who started doing this being in fear of the Pope and his buddies is a nice try, but not Bible truth. The Wycliffe Bible was done years before the AV and many of the other early translations used “baptism” as well.

By the time the AV and other translations came along the word baptize had been used for over 300 years. It had then became a word in the english language. It was back then, nice try though.

You can have your scholarship, meanwhile me and my Authorized King James Version will sit here and laugh at you. (italicized words and all)

-Bro. Hoss

1 Peter 1:
[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
[24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[25] But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
 

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